Any love for Dmitry Sches Thorn?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
User avatar
KVRian
1128 posts since 12 Oct, 2012

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:39 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 am
SLiC wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:02 am
I cant help but feel if this synth hadn't gone to PA it would have had a lot more development.
I doubt it. Diversion's last updates has been beginning of 2016, for example. And, AFAIK, it didn't have any groundbreaking changes either.
ferez21 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:01 am
Dasheesh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:53 am
synthmaster is sampled oscillators.
But it sounds great too
Arguable.

Welll... maybe a developer can chime in, and explain it, but, the way I alwasy understood it is, that calculating the waveforms like Thorn does (should be the same as in wavetable synths) is more CPU heavy, and, especially, more CPU heavy than using sampled oscillators.

I'm actually a bit surprised though. Does Synthmaster really do that? I thought that at least the basic waveforms are calculated, not sampled.
Not sure what exactly is arguable, let's just use our ears, and in case you think Synthmast isn't a good example, you can replace it with Sylenth 1 or DUNE (1, 2 or 3) which i doubt anyone can argue how good they sound, while having a very low CPU footprint.

KVRAF
28095 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:56 am

There's more to it than just the way oscillators are generated/calculated. What oversampling does it use? Does it offer audio rate modulation? How complex is analog modelling for the filters? Are thre certaijn parts of the audio engine which run the whole time, even when idling? Etc. pp.

Arguing that this takes less CPU than that isn't really sufficient. If Synthmaster already calculates the oscillators in a different way, I don't want to know how much else is running different under its hood. Of course, some synths are better optimized than others as well. And, yes, Dmitry's synths take quite a lot of CPU. Diversion is hardly usable for me, for example. But, again, there are many variables, and it doesn't all have to have to do with lack of optimization.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

KVRAF
4377 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:15 am

the only way you are getting thorne lower is to start cutting back on performance. i would actually prefer it to be adjustable audio rates tbh, but that would only make it use that much more cpu. i would also like it to get rid of the stepping in oscillator frequency, but that's imbedded due to presets at this point.

KVRist
61 posts since 3 Sep, 2005 from Venezuela

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:16 am

SLiC wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:02 am
I cant help but feel if this synth hadn't gone to PA it would have had a lot more development.
I can understand you, but please don't lose the big expectations on Thorn, I personally know Dmitry, and I can assure that his genius mind and love for synths and electronic is tireless working on improvements and updates for all his products, such as the amazing Tantra and Diversion, and Thorn of course.  But....

DSAUDIO is a single-man company. The hard times that the planet lives nowadays and the particular critical situation of some countries could make development very difficult, especially for indie developers.  So the deal with third parties resellers and merchants makes a lot of sense.

It is important to note that PA is only the distribution and sales manager for Thorn and has nothing to do with the development of it. Thorn still is announced in DSAUDIO  https://dmitrysches.com/products/thorn

The quality of Dmitry plugins is such that important industry names offer their soundsets and preset libraries from releases time.
Last edited by Jazzguitar on Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
KVRian
1128 posts since 12 Oct, 2012

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:24 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:56 am
There's more to it than just the way oscillators are generated/calculated. What oversampling does it use? Does it offer audio rate modulation? How complex is analog modelling for the filters? Are thre certaijn parts of the audio engine which run the whole time, even when idling? Etc. pp.

Arguing that this takes less CPU than that isn't really sufficient. If Synthmaster already calculates the oscillators in a different way, I don't want to know how much else is running different under its hood. Of course, some synths are better optimized than others as well. And, yes, Dmitry's synths take quite a lot of CPU. Diversion is hardly usable for me, for example. But, again, there are many variables, and it doesn't all have to have to do with lack of optimization.
I get that, i get that for the architecture he chose to use, it might be the most optimised, version of what it is, but if this architecture doesn't give any perceivable sound quality benefits, and in exchange hogs so much CPU power, whats the point?

User avatar
KVRist
299 posts since 27 Aug, 2020

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:26 am

Dasheesh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:36 am
it's the only modern software instrument that works correctly at the moment
:?

KVRAF
28095 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am

ferez21 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:24 am
chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:56 am
There's more to it than just the way oscillators are generated/calculated. What oversampling does it use? Does it offer audio rate modulation? How complex is analog modelling for the filters? Are thre certaijn parts of the audio engine which run the whole time, even when idling? Etc. pp.

Arguing that this takes less CPU than that isn't really sufficient. If Synthmaster already calculates the oscillators in a different way, I don't want to know how much else is running different under its hood. Of course, some synths are better optimized than others as well. And, yes, Dmitry's synths take quite a lot of CPU. Diversion is hardly usable for me, for example. But, again, there are many variables, and it doesn't all have to have to do with lack of optimization.
I get that, i get that for the architecture he chose to use, it might be the most optimised, version of what it is, but if this architecture doesn't give any perceivable sound quality benefits, and in exchange hogs so much CPU power, whats the point?
Actually, I agree with you. If you feel like it doesn't give you any perceivable sound quality benefits, there's no point in using it really. Although I would argue that they sound different enough to make that less of a consideration.

For example, there are a lot of synths which use less CPU than Massive X. But few which can sound better than it, which kind of devalues the CPU argument for me.

Diversion on the other hand could be the best sounding synth of all times, and I still couldn't use it, because it simply brings my CPU to its knees with a simple one oscillator sine wave patch...
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

User avatar
KVRist
270 posts since 17 Sep, 2020

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:48 am

Dasheesh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 am
i'm being told diversion 2 has been in the works.
Great news if true! :party:

KVRist
61 posts since 3 Sep, 2005 from Venezuela

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:24 am

Effectsworks wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:48 am
Dasheesh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 am
i'm being told diversion 2 has been in the works.
Great news if true! :party:
I think all are on a list agenda, but surely the release order is kinda a industrial secret :-)
Jazz Player
Jazz Guitar from Venezuela

User avatar
addled muppet weed
77627 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:43 am

Effectsworks wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:48 am
Dasheesh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 am
i'm being told diversion 2 has been in the works.
Great news if true! :party:
the voices in dash's head, do not lie!

User avatar
KVRian
1128 posts since 12 Oct, 2012

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:00 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am
ferez21 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:24 am
chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:56 am
There's more to it than just the way oscillators are generated/calculated. What oversampling does it use? Does it offer audio rate modulation? How complex is analog modelling for the filters? Are thre certaijn parts of the audio engine which run the whole time, even when idling? Etc. pp.

Arguing that this takes less CPU than that isn't really sufficient. If Synthmaster already calculates the oscillators in a different way, I don't want to know how much else is running different under its hood. Of course, some synths are better optimized than others as well. And, yes, Dmitry's synths take quite a lot of CPU. Diversion is hardly usable for me, for example. But, again, there are many variables, and it doesn't all have to have to do with lack of optimization.
I get that, i get that for the architecture he chose to use, it might be the most optimised, version of what it is, but if this architecture doesn't give any perceivable sound quality benefits, and in exchange hogs so much CPU power, whats the point?
Actually, I agree with you. If you feel like it doesn't give you any perceivable sound quality benefits, there's no point in using it really. Although I would argue that they sound different enough to make that less of a consideration.

For example, there are a lot of synths which use less CPU than Massive X. But few which can sound better than it, which kind of devalues the CPU argument for me.

Diversion on the other hand could be the best sounding synth of all times, and I still couldn't use it, because it simply brings my CPU to its knees with a simple one oscillator sine wave patch...
Raw sound quality wise, I find Thorn comparable to other synths i like, which is a good thing, i love the harmonic filter and the workflow, this could have easily been my go-to synth if it used less CPU power, that was my purpose when i bought it not too long ago 🤖
Same goes for Diversion too.
the only developer that can get away with CPU hogging is U-He but he is a much larger scale developer i guess.

User avatar
KVRist
270 posts since 17 Sep, 2020

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:34 am

vurt wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:43 am
Effectsworks wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:48 am
Dasheesh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 am
i'm being told diversion 2 has been in the works.
Great news if true! :party:
the voices in dash's head, do not lie!
Well that has made my evening. :)

User avatar
GRRRRRRR!
11396 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:53 pm

ferez21 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:01 am
Dasheesh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:53 am
synthmaster is sampled oscillators.
But it sounds great too, what difference does it make for the end user?
Does it? I don't think it does. I've had it for a couple of years and every time I've tried to find a use for it, it has failed. It's not terrible but I don't think it sounds as good as Thorn.
ferez21 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:39 am
Not sure what exactly is arguable, let's just use our ears, and in case you think Synthmast isn't a good example, you can replace it with Sylenth 1 or DUNE (1, 2 or 3) which i doubt anyone can argue how good they sound, while having a very low CPU footprint.
Synthmaster might sound as good as Sylenth 1, which I don't like the sound of much at all, but it's not in the same league as DUNE.
NOVAkILL : Dell G7 Core i7, 32GB RAM, Win10, Zoom U24 | Studio One | Thorn, bx_oberhausen, ARP Odyssey, JP6K, Hexeract, Vacuum Pro, TRK-01, Knifonium, Equator, VG Carbon | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket.

User avatar
KVRian
1128 posts since 12 Oct, 2012

Post Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:07 am

BONES wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:53 pm
ferez21 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:01 am
Dasheesh wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:53 am
synthmaster is sampled oscillators.
But it sounds great too, what difference does it make for the end user?
Does it? I don't think it does. I've had it for a couple of years and every time I've tried to find a use for it, it has failed. It's not terrible but I don't think it sounds as good as Thorn.
ferez21 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:39 am
Not sure what exactly is arguable, let's just use our ears, and in case you think Synthmast isn't a good example, you can replace it with Sylenth 1 or DUNE (1, 2 or 3) which i doubt anyone can argue how good they sound, while having a very low CPU footprint.
Synthmaster might sound as good as Sylenth 1, which I don't like the sound of much at all, but it's not in the same league as DUNE.
Well, the same point persists, let's compare it to DUNE since you like its sound, a vst synth can sound great without hogging the CPU, and using some complicated architecture to achieve an end result that has no perceivable benefits doesn't make sense to me.

KVRist
247 posts since 21 Jan, 2017

Post Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:38 am

Good to see others are digging Thorn too. Diversion was the first soft synth I got where the sound really blew me away. I'm also in the minority I guess in that it's probably my favorite gui of any synth, if only you could resize it (and the cpu hunger wasn't so intense) it'd be perfect.

That said if I needed one for bass duty I'd probably reach for Thorn first over Diversion.

Return to “Instruments”