My first trance track (or:attempt at least) - seeking advice on song structure, sounds & mixing

[kurt.zweil]

Hey all,

OK, let's give it a try.
I have spent lots of time trying to make trance when I was MUCH younger (...back in the 90s...)
Now since I turned 40 this year I thought I must give it another try and see if it's still fun.
So have spent a few evenings trying to find some inspiration and this is the very early prototype of what I am trying to create as my first finished song in the 21st century!

You may very well recognize this is completely amateurish in terms of song structure, sounds used etc. Also the mixing I guess is terrifying if I compare this to properly mixed and mastered stuff.

However this is as far as I can get at the moment.

I am looking for ANY kind of constructive feedback on idea, melody, structure, chords, mixing... whatever you can think of. My goal is to refine this and make it better every time I get back to modify, so all ideas are appreciated.

Have uploaded this on YT.
Here is the link: https://youtu.be/DQThn1C4KO4

Cheers
Kurt

[ChameleonMusic]

So have spent a few evenings trying to find some inspiration and this is the very early prototype of what I am trying to create as my first finished song in the 21st century!

Considering the above comment, that's a pretty good start to my ears! Good listen in many ways - some strong elements in there.

Structure -wise it has some decent drops and a clear chill out section...

Possibly needs to go somewhere completely 'new' at some point towards the middle maybe - different chords / melody for extra contrast and variety?

Section from 2 mins onward to 3 mins is a little lacking in any new ideas / development.

End could be lifted even further with an extra melodic layer?

Some sort of soaring lead synth line to compliment the vocals might work?

Production:

Not at all bad overall (better than some of the mediocre dance nonsense on here)

Not sure that the kick is quite the right sound for the track?

Snare rolls / fills - ditto the timbre + could also do with being more subtle in their rise and fall maybe...bit high in the mix at times.

Overall, the mix sounds a little bit 'fizzy' ...a little too much energy in the higher frequencies compared to the mid / bass area?

Vocals - they are leading to some extent, but sort of float within too much reverb for me?

Just what came to mind on a couple of quick listens!

[recursive one]

40 y.o., used to love trance in the late 90s, still inspired by the the tracks of the golden era. Man, I recognize myself

Lovely track! I hear some Blank & Jones/PPK/van Dyk vibes here. The melodies, the synths and the track structure are spot on. It absolutely sounds like it was made circa 1998 which i understand was the goal. Love these vocals, really well done.

Mix-wise, I'm listening in my headphones, so I can't really comment on the mix in detail - but it seems that the kick lacks power quite a bit and the whole thing could be brigther and more open.

Considering your style, I think this track could be a good mixing reference, I suggest you to listen to it carefully and compare to your track and then I think you'll hear what is missing in your mix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-kaAwQ0ul4

All in all, I really enjoyed your track. A hefty dose of nostalgia

EDIT: listened in the monitors today,the mix does need some rebalancing. As I said, the kick lacks punch (try a different one?) , also the hi-hats need to be louder and brighter. The snare rolls at 0:30 are too loud and probably could do with more hipassing. The vocals also seem too loud.

Also the mix is drowned in reverb - sure, trance needs huge reverbs but you probably want to revise the reverb settings so that the track would sound more open and less muddy.

The part before the breakdown could be at least twice as long. Also where are the swooshes/risers?

Still great track which could be even better with more accurate mixing

[kurt.zweil]

Considering the above comment, that's a pretty good start to my ears! Good listen in many ways - some strong elements in there.

Thanks - much appreciated! The problem for me is (...and I guess this is a common issue...) that when I am hearing it over and over again I certainly lose neutrality in terms of what's good and what's just good because I heard it twelve thousand times in a loop

Possibly needs to go somewhere completely 'new' at some point towards the middle maybe - different chords / melody for extra contrast and variety?

That's a very good point here! When I compare to brilliant trance stuff (to my ears at least) those songs all are not too complex but have slight variations that bring it to live. And I fully agree that the current prototype is still very static.

End could be lifted even further with an extra melodic layer?

Some sort of soaring lead synth line to compliment the vocals might work?

Yeah, I am gonna try that! I am also not liking the last change from the static part back to the full melody / chords again. Will need to see what I can do here.

Not sure that the kick is quite the right sound for the track?

I can easily try to change that - it's 'hand-made' with Kick2. What do you think should change on the kick? More transients?

Snare rolls / fills - ditto the timbre + could also do with being more subtle in their rise and fall maybe...bit high in the mix at times.

I figured that out as well when I heard it back again. They are too strong in the mix. Maybe I can try to get some EQing applied and reduce the volume a bit. Also I think the automation (increase in volume) for the rolls have disappeared in the mixdown somehow?!
Regarding timbre that's a bit harded as it uses a sample (one of the few I have used....). What do you think would work better? I personally liked the harsh sound quite a lot but maybe this is too agressive for the song style?

Overall, the mix sounds a little bit 'fizzy' ...a little too much energy in the higher frequencies compared to the mid / bass area?

Yeah, this is the area where I have no effin clue how to do it I figured out that the stereo master bus had +6 db in peaks when I tried to apply a limiter, so I guess I have reduced the kick drum too much (...this is probably why it feels too weak now...) and left the rest more or less unchanged.
Is there any good tutorial available how to build up all the individual instruments in volume, EQing, dynamics etc.?
What I have applied already is that I sent all the bass-lines to 2 send FX busses (100% / no dry signal left). I have then applied mono setting for one bus and filtered out all the high frequencies so it gets more punch. The other fx bus I filtered out all the low frequenzies and left that stereo.
Got this tip from a tutorial and found it quite useful for basslines.

Vocals - they are leading to some extent, but sort of float within too much reverb for me?

True, they need to be crisper. Will modify the reverb settings.

Thanks for all your advice! This is really appreciated. Also: is there any free mastering website comparable to eMastering.com? Have uploaded the track here and the results where pretty good!

[kurt.zweil]

40 y.o., used to love trance in the late 90s, still inspired by the the tracks of the golden era. Man, I recognize myself

I not only used to love trance in the 90s. This love actually never died I only stopped trying to make my own stuff for a while and took care about growing up (haha) and getting my job and family sorted. And this priorities have not left much time to sit down and tweak sounds.
Fortunately my taste never really adopted to the more modern trance since say 2005 onwards. The classics 90s mixes are still my absolute favourites on YT.

I hear some Blank & Jones/PPK/van Dyk vibes here.

Oh that's nice connotations indeed. Needed to google for PPK - never heard of them before I need to admit.

EDIT: listened in the monitors today,the mix does need some rebalancing. As I said, the kick lacks punch (try a different one?) , also the hi-hats need to be louder and brighter. The snare rolls at 0:30 are too loud and probably could do with more hipassing. The vocals also seem too loud.

Also the mix is drowned in reverb - sure, trance needs huge reverbs but you probably want to revise the reverb settings so that the track would sound more open and less muddy.

Indeed - as I stated in the reply above I do not have any clue about how to get the mix right I truly believe that a good mix can make or break a track. The focus for this prototype really was getting myself familiarised with Cubase 10 (... my last heavily used Cubase Version was SX2...) and get a bit of melody, chords and structure down. I do think that I have at least understood how to utilise the Cubase basics now and it is crazy to see that you do not need to worry about performance these days. Just load another SW synth instance. Man those were days when you needed to create all from a JV2080...

The part before the breakdown could be at least twice as long. Also where are the swooshes/risers?

Yeah, the intro is a bit fast indeed. Risers - isn't that something adopted in the 2000s ?

[ChameleonMusic]

Is there any good tutorial available how to build up all the individual instruments in volume, EQing, dynamics etc.?

Amongst other ideas, I sent this lot to someone else on here a few weeks ago (note - they were absolute beginners in production, so apologies if some of this is irrelevant):

Height, Width, Depth Illusion: Three Dimensional Mixing
https://www.4soundengineers.com/three-d ... al-mixing/

Adding depth: How to bring your mix to life
https://www.sonible.com/blog/adding-depth/

As far as mixing is concerned, especially the effective use of EQ and compression, these are useful and well written:

EQ:
Equalization 101: Everything Musicians Need to Know about EQ
Starts with the basics and then goes into a LOT of depth with videos etc...

https://blog.landr.com/eq-basics-everyt ... d-know-eq/

My BIGGEST tips here are:
#Less is more - cut don't boost if at all possible
#Remember that use of EQ changes levels
#Q factor - 100% crucial...tight, finely targeted EQ changes might be necessary sometimes, but you should aim for more gentle, wider hits if possible
#Learn about MASKING and its issues.
#Check out adaptive EQs at some point - they help so much! (EQs that are NOT static, but are setup to respond to certain moments / issues in your music)

COMPRESSION
Audio Compression 101: How to Use a Compressor for a Better Mix
https://blog.landr.com/how-to-use-a-compressor/
Again, starts very basic but goes into a lot of depth!

My top tips here:
#Don't use it unless it's needed on a track. if you're using compression on everything then something is going wrong!
#Understand transients and how compression changes them via various parameters.
#Bass sounds - certain compression settings distort them in weird ways at times!
#Drums / percussion - so many people use way too fast attack settings here - can sound great solo'ed, but in the mix they'll just disappear if you overdo it.

GENERAL APPROACH TO MIXING:
How to mix music
https://www.landr.com/how-to-mix

Tips off the top of my head:
#Use reference tracks - absolutely essential so that you get to know your acoustic environment. Make sure that they are in similar styles and also tracks that you know well and are recognised as well produced.
#Be VERY organised - Plan, plan, plan, plan...mixing is complicated.
#take breaks - lots of them as your ears get tired!
#Everything is guidelines, not rules really - don't be afraid of being creative, but just make sure you understand all the basics first!
Check your final mix on different systems - car, small blue tooth speaker, phone, Hi Fi etc.

I taught lectured in Music / Music Tech for 32 years, so I tend to go on sometimes...sorry!

[ChameleonMusic]

Also: is there any free mastering website comparable to eMastering.com? Have uploaded the track here and the results where pretty good!

For me, ALL AI / automated mastering services are quite limited at the moment...and I'm afraid that I've yet to hear any really decent results from any free service!

They CAN all do a good job, but they can also 'miss' a lot of things and are generally aimed at making a track a little bit louder and 'shiny'! I master my own work and know how incredibly complicated it can be and how each and every track can be very different. Sometimes I have to use a more adaptive approach as even different sections in a single piece need subtly varied treatments!

The online ones seem to generally work best on Club Dance / Pop styles where the dynamics and music content are much more even and consistent throughout...so they might well be helpful to your output?

Emastered.com has a mixed reputation, especially regarding the way it runs the business:

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/emaste ... 20services.

from the A / B tests I did a couple of years ago on a few of them, Landr came out as one of the better ones...

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/landr.com

They certainly have a lot of genuine 'know how' behind them as such, but as I said...i think they are all limited at the moment.

5 years old, but still very relevant :
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... -mastering

[tomtom1]

Is there any good tutorial available how to build up all the individual instruments in volume, EQing, dynamics etc.?

Amongst other ideas, I sent this lot to someone else on here a few weeks ago (note - they were absolute beginners in production, so apologies if some of this is irrelevant):

oh yeah, he is so right... (but it hurts a bit reading it somewhere else again). But the tips are quite useful, and THEY improved a lot

[ChameleonMusic]

Is there any good tutorial available how to build up all the individual instruments in volume, EQing, dynamics etc.?

Amongst other ideas, I sent this lot to someone else on here a few weeks ago (note - they were absolute beginners in production, so apologies if some of this is irrelevant):

oh yeah, he is so right... (but it hurts a bit reading it somewhere else again). But the tips are quite useful, and THEY improved a lot

Ha! just so it's VERY clear,Thomas - you were NOT the absolute beginner I was referring to at all! I remember you being in that thread, but it was the topic starter who was very keen on some help as he was in over his head and trying to do some very high level stuff before knowing the basics!

I would never have called you a 'beginner' at all this production / music tech approach despite your more traditional, classical background (very far from it in fact)!

[excuse me please]

Not bad, but things could become somewhat more intriguing by adding more dramatic elements. What a about a cello solo?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2AeF0FdYZ3U

[recursive one]

Needed to google for PPK - never heard of them before I need to admit.

PPK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3cSTBpKxWk

(the video reminded me on that today is 60 years from the Gagarin's flight )

[excuse me please]

Listened to it again sober. The voice is rather undefined. Bathing in reverb. I can't hear what they sing. But the track itself is rather good.

[mindstuff]

That break! ...loving the melodic content.

[Bansaw]

Overall liked it.
The vibe was good; often I like the retro stuff.
I might change the kick drum, and certainly the snare for a different one.

[kurt.zweil]

Guys, thanks for everyone who dared to take a listen to a newbie attempt and for all your kind words and feedback! It is really encouraging that you have all given constructive feedback and advice.
I will certainly start a new project when time allows again and try to include some of the advice given in that thread.