XILS-lab KaoX coming soon ...

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JerGoertz wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:45 am Been playing with this a bit, sounds very nice to me. I just e-mailed Xavier a link to this thread, hopefully any issues will be taken care of shortly.
I really like it too. I’m getting some sweet textures and lush pads.

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simmo75 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:55 am
JerGoertz wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:45 am Been playing with this a bit, sounds very nice to me. I just e-mailed Xavier a link to this thread, hopefully any issues will be taken care of shortly.
I really like it too. I’m getting some sweet textures and lush pads.
For sure! It has that Xils richness which sounds so good on such things. Also on basses.
A well-behaved signature.

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ELEX wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:14 am Didn't test that. Only the basic functioning of ( and differences between) the allocation modes. But should a sustain pedal (re) trigger anything at all, upon depressing ? Never thought it should, tbh. Doesn't happen in any synth I have. These allocation modes have certainly nothing to do with the pedal function. They just determine the voice to which a new note is allocated.
I'm no native english speaker so I've obviously explained it wrong. Sorry for that.

What I've meant was not the pedal triggering anything. The issue I have is holding the pedal and play a note. While still holding the pedal play the same note again. It should keep holding the first note and use another voice for playing the second note. That works if you play a different note but not when you play the same note. If you play the same note again while holding the pedal KaoX triggers the OSC again but not the envelopes resulting in an unexpected sound.

Usually when playing piano-like sounds you play a chord and then "break it up" by playing arpeggios with the same notes with the hold pedal. That sounds completely off with KaoX.

This is what it's supposed to sound:

Dexed
https://soundcloud.com/quartiermayence/dexed

Repro-5
https://soundcloud.com/quartiermayence/repro-5

And that's how it comes out with KaoX:
https://soundcloud.com/quartiermayence/kaox

I hope my issue is clearer now.

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Ah..yes, I see what you mean now. A quick test made it very obvious indeed. It's a design choice, I guess. Treat an instrument as either a piano, as Xils do here or a true synth, as with dexed and repro. Must say that for synths the latter seems the way to go to me as well. Not really a pedal user myself, I'd never have noticed. Nice to have learnt something. If you decide to buy this, put in a feature request, I'd say. I sent my own findings to M. Oudin just now. Very much including my love for the FM flavor on offer in KaoX.

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ELEX wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:18 am If you decide to buy this, put in a feature request, I'd say. I sent my own findings to M. Oudin just now. Very much including my love for the FM flavor on offer in KaoX.
I've already bought it on monday :) :)

Actually I bought it sight unseen, because I've waited for years for an 8OP-FM Synth in general and a GS-1 clone in particular. When I saw the trailor for KaoX some weeks ago I knew I had to have it.

And regardless of the issues I have with it, I like it very much. It's a great synth with phantastic possibilities. It goes way beyond the original with the additional analog and the chaos OSCs. The filters are top class as well. All around a great package.

I only wish they had included the original GS-1 16 presets (and maybe even the 32 additional presets that came on magnetic strips for the card reader of the GS-1).

But the 16 ROM presets would be enough for a start, since there are some very iconic sounds among those. The Toto Marimba, that hollow chorused E-Piano that was never convincingly replicated with the DX7. That piano sound was also on Robben Ford's "talk to your daughter" or Yellowjackets "revelation".

This is an example of a track famous in Germany. This is said to be a GS-1 in double mode stacking two of the 16 presets. That song is so famous for it's piano sound that later people even called their attempts of recreating that on a DX7 "Tänzerin", "Danceuse" or "EdoZanki" (which was the producer). I would give everything to have those sounds in KaOX. BTW: With the current pedal behaviour you couldn't play that song on KaoX :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFlSk7MArBk

But to be fair: The GS-1 was programmed with a computer system that only Yamaha had and if there are any patch sheets or disks at all, they probably also only exist at Yamaha. So it's very little chance of ever getting those patches.

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Garrincha wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:13 pm BTW: With the current pedal behaviour you couldn't play that song on KaoX :D
Ah...you have a strong case with regards to the pedal response then. Expecting it to match the GS-1 is definitely reasonable. Great expressive piano patch on the song, btw. Though very difficult to recreate from the recording as there seem to be effects on it.

Another thing: already received a reply to the little findings report I sent earlier today and it says the FM OP glide issue is being addressed. Very good news, indeed. Crucial for any piano patches too, I dare say. I'll more than likely end up buying this synth now too.

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ELEX wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:42 pm Though very difficult to recreate from the recording as there seem to be effects on it.
That's the Ensemble FX from the GS-1. I've read somwhere, that this effect in the GS-1 was kind of a predecessor of the "Symphonic" effect that ended up in the SPX-9xx series of 19" rack FX-units. That shouldn't be to hard to replicate. Actually I think the Chorus of KaoX does a pretty good job for that sound.

There's also a bit of Reverb. That should be the good old "Concert Hall" from the Lexicon 224. At least that's what german studios often used at that time. That and the Quantec. But the reverb sounds more like a Lexicon to me.

The hardest part is certainly programming the two patches from the scratch. I'm familiar with the algorithm of the thing (it was only one) and KaoX with its FM-Matrix makes it possible to recreate the crossfeed part which the DX7 didn't have in any of it's algorithms. But the algorithm alone only gets you so far. There are a lot of parameters that would be (educated) guesswork.

There are rumors that at the beginning of the development the Yamaha engineers could only get one useful sound out of the hardware and that's what ended up as the Marimba sound that Steve Porcaro made famous on "Africa". Anything else the engineers tried ended up in noise. The called for John Chowning who fought with the programming system for some weeks and then finally gave up as well. They then called Dave Bristow and he got the 15 remaining presets that ende up in the factory bank of the maschine.

So with that story in mind I highly doubt my limited skills will be enough to recreate those patches. If somebody had a patch-sheet I would give it a try. But I highly doubt such a thing even exists outside of Yamaha.

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Garrincha wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:36 pm ...The hardest part is certainly programming the two patches from the scratch. I'm familiar with the algorithm of the thing (it was only one) and KaoX with its FM-Matrix makes it possible to recreate the crossfeed part which the DX7 didn't have in any of it's algorithms...
What is that algorithm exactly ? I was curious and tried to find info earlier, and all I find is "4 carrier, 4 modulator". That would be in parallel, I guess. But you speak of cross feed. between which operators would that be ? It would be interesting to try some patches in the original algorithm.

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WatchTheGuitar wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:32 pm Wonder if these 'chaos oscillators' are like the ones on Pendulate/Generate?
The video sounds nice enough, but nothing leapt out as something I couldn't make with other things I own.
That said their demos are usually pretty 'safe' and some of their plugins are capable of really crazy stuff.
I was wondering the same thing.

I need this thing like I need a hole in my head, but it is all bright and shiny and hybrid which is what I like. Sheesh I even have an OpSix and a Digitone. But it is Xils and I like their filters and stuff...
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Gribs

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ELEX wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:22 pm What is that algorithm exactly ? I was curious and tried to find info earlier, and all I find is "4 carrier, 4 modulator". That would be in parallel, I guess. But you speak of cross feed. between which operators would that be ? It would be interesting to try some patches in the original algorithm.
I found this on a Yamaha website:

Image

There are other pics floating around not showing the feedback-loops on OP2 and 4. Both options (feedback on 2 and 4 and crossfeed on 2 and 4) could be switched on or off which effectifely makes it three algorithms if you like.

The GS-1 had this 4 OP-group for each of the two layers. KaoX has a full 8 OP implementation per layer which actually makes KaoX a Mega-GS-1 :love:

KaoX has a set of presets for the FM-part only. There are two "GS-1" presets which shows how the algorithm of the GS-1 is made with the FM-Matrix of KaoX.

The Matrix is actually a thing that won me over on KaoX. The FM7 also had that and that makes FM-programming a lot easier. I always wanted such an interface on FM since NI abandoned the FM7.

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Thanks very much for the info ! :tu: And you sure are right about the matrix, it's immensely useful. As well as powerful. Any FM synth should have one. And with 8OP's there's about a lifetime of creating timbres in it.

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There's a new beta 1.01 download available at xils website: The glide can now reach 0 ms

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Excellent news ! And very quick. That was the only thing I really did not like. The range of timbres/textures this synth can produce is amazing. The longer I play with it the more I like it.

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There are still some preset specific issues where anything with a generous amount of glide just sounds like crap. Take preset 'PC Woodblocks Unison NU' for example, and the one right before it "PC Marimba&Xylophone NU". Preset "LD Thales AJ" is still wonky (glide value of 110ms), and curiously, a lot of the messed up Nori patches ALL have the same 110 ms glide value, so what's the deal with that?

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dvnation wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:07 pm There are still some preset specific issues where anything with a generous amount of glide just sounds like crap. Take preset 'PC Woodblocks Unison NU' for example, and the one right before it "PC Marimba&Xylophone NU". Preset "LD Thales AJ" is still wonky (glide value of 110ms), and curiously, a lot of the messed up Nori patches ALL have the same 110 ms glide value, so what's the deal with that?
Maybe you should email Xils support and ask them?

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