Bitwig 4 - what's gonna be in it?

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antic604 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:56 pm Seeing how Apple just announced M1 iPad Pro, I actually hope Bitwig's working on native Apple Silicon port, which I guess would be easily ported to that iPad :o
Sure, they do. Claes also confirmed it on the DAWbench podcast.

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Since JAVA is not allowed on iOS by Apple, there can't be a iOS port of Bitwig.

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moss wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:31 am
antic604 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:56 pm Seeing how Apple just announced M1 iPad Pro, I actually hope Bitwig's working on native Apple Silicon port, which I guess would be easily ported to that iPad :o
Sure, they do. Claes also confirmed it on the DAWbench podcast.
I know. I meant I hope it's high priority :)
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My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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I hope the opposite, that dev time flows into good and still missing features instead. Into improving the UX and concept. Or give windows and intel mac users half a year update time for free.

It won't be ported to iOS, iOS has no JAVA, it would require a total rewrite of the GUI system, which is insane.

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antic604 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:39 am
moss wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:31 am
antic604 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:56 pm Seeing how Apple just announced M1 iPad Pro, I actually hope Bitwig's working on native Apple Silicon port, which I guess would be easily ported to that iPad :o
Sure, they do. Claes also confirmed it on the DAWbench podcast.
I know. I meant I hope it's high priority :)
Don't worry :-)

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:? :scared:

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Hanz Meyzer wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:55 am:? :scared:
What? I'm sure the devs are aware of JAVA situation with Apple.
Music tech enthusiast
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My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Look, early Apple ARM support is utter nonsense, since once the DAW starts in native/non-rosetta2 mode, all the plugins need to provide an ARM binary, too. Can you imagine how long this will take? I think another year or so at least. So DAW vendors should not at all high priority this. Might be that Apple suddenly changes details, too. Why being Apple's beta tester for free?

And currently there are no real "pro" arm devices available, either. Those current devices are a very first attempt to show the capabilities.

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Hanz Meyzer wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:20 am Look, early Apple ARM support is utter nonsense, since once the DAW starts in native/non-rosetta2 mode, all the plugins need to provide an ARM binary, too. Can you imagine how long this will take? I think another year or so at least. So DAW vendors should not at all high priority this. Might be that Apple suddenly changes details, too. Why being Apple's beta tester for free?

And currently there are no real "pro" arm devices available, either. Those current devices are a very first attempt to show the capabilities.
People using not at all 'pro' M1 ARM macs are getting results and track counts equal to a far more expensive high end iMac. One person reported the same track counts on a 13" MBP as on their iMac Pro. And they also reported that while the iMac Pro GUI became sluggish, the M1 Mac GUI stayed smooth and ran silent and cool.

Another person, also using the 13" M1 MBP reported 192 simultaneous Diva voices at a sample buffer of 32! Lots of people are buying M1 macs because of the performance, low latency and that they stay silent, stable and cool even under heavy load.

And every week another plugin developer announces M1 support. Let's see... Serum, U-he, Fabfilter, AAS, Rapid, Spire and others are already M1 native. Valhalla, Spectrasonics and plenty of others have announced the imminent release of native M1 updates.

So ARM support is a great move for Bitwig. Early would have been 4 months ago, now it is just timely.

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pdxindy wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:24 pm
Hanz Meyzer wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:20 am Look, early Apple ARM support is utter nonsense, since once the DAW starts in native/non-rosetta2 mode, all the plugins need to provide an ARM binary, too. Can you imagine how long this will take? I think another year or so at least. So DAW vendors should not at all high priority this. Might be that Apple suddenly changes details, too. Why being Apple's beta tester for free?

And currently there are no real "pro" arm devices available, either. Those current devices are a very first attempt to show the capabilities.
People using not at all 'pro' M1 ARM macs are getting results and track counts equal to a far more expensive high end iMac. One person reported the same track counts on a 13" MBP as on their iMac Pro. And they also reported that while the iMac Pro GUI became sluggish, the M1 Mac GUI stayed smooth and ran silent and cool.

Another person, also using the 13" M1 MBP reported 192 simultaneous Diva voices at a sample buffer of 32! Lots of people are buying M1 macs because of the performance, low latency and that they stay silent, stable and cool even under heavy load.

And every week another plugin developer announces M1 support. Let's see... Serum, U-he, Fabfilter, AAS, Rapid, Spire and others are already M1 native. Valhalla, Spectrasonics and plenty of others have announced the imminent release of native M1 updates.

So ARM support is a great move for Bitwig. Early would have been 4 months ago, now it is just timely.
I have no doubt it will happen soon. Bitwig is a newer DAW with I would bet few areas of the code that have been depreciated, the main thing holding up developers. There's so many positive things about native Arm support that it's pretty much useless to try to convince the haters. In the bigger picture Arm is looking to be the future of computing, not just some Apple thing, so developers getting on board supporting it means that there will be shorter amount of time that Mac OS portables will have a huge advantage over Windows machines.
Microsoft has had an Arm port of Windows for years, but always used third party chips, so no real advantage over i7 and i9 laptops (besides power consumption), and poor application support. Apple showed that in house development pays off big time speed wise and Microsoft is now developing their own in house chip. Developers like Bitwig getting on board with the M1 will eventually be a huge benefit to everyone not just early adopters.

One thing that will probably never change is that KVR and other places with multi platform representation will always have a group of people with an unhealthy obsession with hating on Apple. Nothing they do will ever be right, and years from now when they're using their Arm base laptop with a Windows designed chip in it, they will talk about how much better and cheaper it is than a MacBook, and how Apple didn't really innovate anything, actually Microsoft did it first, etc. etc. It's kicking water uphill to argue with them.

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machinesworking wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:19 pmOne thing that will probably never change is that KVR and other places with multi platform representation will always have a group of people with an unhealthy obsession with hating on Apple. Nothing they do will ever be right, and years from now when they're using their Arm base laptop with a Windows designed chip in it, they will talk about how much better and cheaper it is than a MacBook, and how Apple didn't really innovate anything, actually Microsoft did it first, etc. etc. It's kicking water uphill to argue with them.
I'm never trying to convince the zealots. In that case I post replies for the other people reading the thread.

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pdxindy wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:05 pm
machinesworking wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:19 pmOne thing that will probably never change is that KVR and other places with multi platform representation will always have a group of people with an unhealthy obsession with hating on Apple. Nothing they do will ever be right, and years from now when they're using their Arm base laptop with a Windows designed chip in it, they will talk about how much better and cheaper it is than a MacBook, and how Apple didn't really innovate anything, actually Microsoft did it first, etc. etc. It's kicking water uphill to argue with them.
I'm never trying to convince the zealots. In that case I post replies for the other people reading the thread.
I just get amazed that people are fueling themselves with hate towards one particular company and ignoring the long game. I use Apple products, but I nearly switched to Windows for the Zenbook Duo. What stopped me is the same heat and fan issues that Apple has with the i9. That's going to go away in the next couple years on all platforms when everyone switches to Arm based computing. At that point if Apple is still be a beeeyoch about touch screens and their OS I might just switch, because the technology is the main selling point. From what I understand Windows is super solid these days and no big hassle audio wise, but the M1 is amazing, and if Apple steps up to the plate touch screen wise, there's going to be only cheap desktops in Windows favor. I suppose they could pull out all stops and develop a better Arm based chip than Apple did, but that's probably a stretch.

More to the point, it did not bother me that Bitwig spent time developing touch screen technology for Linux and Windows, when Apple doesn't have multi touch capability. At some point you have give up partisanship in favor of tech.

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machinesworking wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:31 pm I just get amazed that people are fueling themselves with hate towards one particular company and ignoring the long game. I use Apple products, but I nearly switched to Windows for the Zenbook Duo. What stopped me is the same heat and fan issues that Apple has with the i9. That's going to go away in the next couple years on all platforms when everyone switches to Arm based computing. At that point if Apple is still be a beeeyoch about touch screens and their OS I might just switch, because the technology is the main selling point. From what I understand Windows is super solid these days and no big hassle audio wise, but the M1 is amazing, and if Apple steps up to the plate touch screen wise, there's going to be only cheap desktops in Windows favor. I suppose they could pull out all stops and develop a better Arm based chip than Apple did, but that's probably a stretch.

More to the point, it did not bother me that Bitwig spent time developing touch screen technology for Linux and Windows, when Apple doesn't have multi touch capability. At some point you have give up partisanship in favor of tech.
It does seem like a stretch in the short term. Apple has been developing their own ARM processors for years now. It is not new so they have considerable institutional knowledge built up.

Apple also doesn't have to maintain backwards compatibility and past experience of changing processors helped with Rosetta 2.

No doubt Windows will catch up at some point... but it will be some years from now. The M1 Macs are selling very well. Who doesn't want a fast laptop that stays quiet and cool and has long battery life!

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pdxindy wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:02 pm Who doesn't want a fast laptop that stays quiet and cool and has long battery life!
I don't want a laptop fullstop, because i don't get on with touchpads, i'd rather use a mouse. Sorry to reply to your rhetorical question.

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Hanz Meyzer wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:20 am Look, early Apple ARM support is utter nonsense, since once the DAW starts in native/non-rosetta2 mode, all the plugins need to provide an ARM binary, too. Can you imagine how long this will take? I think another year or so at least. So DAW vendors should not at all high priority this. Might be that Apple suddenly changes details, too. Why being Apple's beta tester for free?
The ARM version of REAPER loads x86_64 plugins via a bridge.

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