7th chords & Harmonic minor key

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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KVRAF
2280 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Tue May 04, 2021 12:38 pm

is it still root, 3rd, 5th, & 7th, to make a 7th chord in the harmonic minor key, or not?

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Tue May 04, 2021 1:00 pm

yep
V7 in A harmonic minor then is E G# B D; vii7 is G# B D F. those are the only tetrads by thirds affected by it.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2280 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Tue May 04, 2021 6:16 pm

Thanks jancivil

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Tue May 04, 2021 7:05 pm

I'm forgetting there will be a iii7 w. a +5; in A minor C E G# B

KVRer
7 posts since 30 Apr, 2021

Post Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 am

A seventh chord is always 1 3 5 7, the quality of the intervals (5b, 5#, etc...) dipends on which scale grade they are built.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2280 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Mon May 10, 2021 3:52 am

Zackit wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 am
A seventh chord is always 1 3 5 7, the quality of the intervals (5b, 5#, etc...) dipends on which scale grade they are built.
ok thanks

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon May 10, 2021 5:33 am

This will exceed the original request by a ways but I think it needs to be shown because of a potential impediment from an assertion. I don't think anything needed to be added, but the issue is not clarified by it.
Zackit wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 am
A seventh chord is always 1 3 5 7, the quality of the intervals (5b, 5#, etc...) dipends on which scale grade they are built.
This statement looks like diatonic usage is all there is.
Harmonic minor is diatonic and uses an altered scale degree from the given key signature.
b5 et al may occur diatonically or it may be a chromatic alteration.
Diatonically it occurs in major the once, on vii: in C, B D F, and the native seventh on it is A. Known as a diminished/minor seventh construct, short name half-diminished.
It occurs in minor the once, on ii: in A minor, B D F (A).

The vast majority of the use of minor key in the Common Practice Period is harmonic, with a raised seventh degree aka leading tone making its V harmony major and now we've a second diminished or flat 5th on that, so our dominant harmony [in C minor] contains G B D F Ab in toto.

Beyond this however is chromatic usage. So the statement is incomplete, and I'll give an example how in two different style categories. The augmented six chord in CPP harmony and so on: it takes a iv harmony, let's use D minor in key of A minor. It is a "six chord" ie there is a sixth between its bass and root, or a first inversion harmony. F A D.
That 6 is augmented, D#. Basic form is that triad, which is not diatonic. Next form adds a C: F A C D# (it looks just like a major/minor seventh (in this functional context dominant seventh) construction but isn't quite, because of the point of the alteration is voice leading in a drive towards the dominant. The next form of it contains a B (de facto flatting the 5), so it [F A B D#] looks like a misspelled dominant 7 flat 5 (de facto B7b5)*. The point of the alteration is drive to E here. So a harmony built on F - which is not the real root - is headed to E7. Its flat 5 does not depend on what scale degree it was built.
Its sharp 6 (considered as a putative 7 or not) does not depend on scale degree.

Shortly after WWII an innovation in jazz harmony appears: *the flat five substitution principle.
F7b5 is, in this style, considered equivalent to B7b5. Just like the chord above, a type of created secondary dominant. The flat 5 is not dependent on the other factor, it is a chromatic alteration producing more drive to a target.

This is not that unusual.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon May 10, 2021 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2280 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Mon May 10, 2021 5:37 am

jancivil wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:33 am
This will exceed the original request by a ways but I think it needs to be shown because of a potential impediment from an assertion. I don't think anything needed to be added, but the issue is not clarified by it.
Zackit wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 am
A seventh chord is always 1 3 5 7, the quality of the intervals (5b, 5#, etc...) dipends on which scale grade they are built.
This statement looks like diatonic usage is all there is.
Harmonic minor is diatonic and uses an altered scale degree from the given key signature.
b5 et al may occur diatonically or it may be a chromatic alteration.
Diatonically it occurs in major the once, on vii: in C, B D F, and the native seventh on it is A. Known as a diminished/minor seventh construct, short name half-diminished.
It occurs in minor the once, on ii: in A minor, B D F (A).

The vast majority of the use of minor key in the Common Practice Period is harmonic, with a raised seventh degree aka leading tone making its V harmony major and now we've a second diminished or flat 5th on that, so our dominant harmony contains G B D F Ab in toto.

Beyond this however is chromatic usage. So the statement is incomplete, and I'll give an example how in two different style categories. The augmented six chord in CPP harmony and so on: it takes a iv harmony, let's use D minor in key of A minor. It is a "six chord" ie there is a sixth between its bass and root, or a first inversion harmony. F A D.
That 6 is augmented, D#. Basic form is that triad, which is not diatonic. Next form adds a C: F A C D# (it looks just like a major/minor seventh (in this functional context dominant seventh) construction but isn't quite, because of the point of the alteration is voice leading in a drive towards the dominant. The next form of it contains a B (de facto flatting the 5), so it [F A B D#] looks like a misspelled dominant 7 flat 5. The point of the alteration is drive to E here. So a harmony built on F - which is not the real root - is headed to E7. Its flat 5 does not depend on what scale degree it was built.
Its sharp 6 (considered as a putative 7 or not) does not depend on scale degree.

Shortly after WWII an innovation in jazz harmony appears: the flat five substitution principle.
F7b5 is, in this style, considered equivalent to B7b5. Just like the chord above, a type of created secondary dominant. The flat 5 is not dependent on the other factor, it is a chromatic alteration producing more drive to a target.

This is not that unusual.
I'm gonna read that later, jancivil, because i scanned through it and i'll need to concentrate to grasp it which isn't possible at the moment. Thanks!

KVRer
7 posts since 30 Apr, 2021

Post Mon May 10, 2021 5:45 am

jancivil wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:33 am
This will exceed the original request by a ways but I think it needs to be shown because of a potential impediment from an assertion. I don't think anything needed to be added, but the issue is not clarified by it.
Zackit wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 am
A seventh chord is always 1 3 5 7, the quality of the intervals (5b, 5#, etc...) dipends on which scale grade they are built.
This statement looks like diatonic usage is all there is
Op is not asking for a harmony master class for what I've read (and there is much more to say beyond the info you gave at this point) so my answer is directly related to the op question.

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon May 10, 2021 6:07 am

In_fact your answer is incomplete, and I don't operate like the OP is the only reader.
Also I acknowledged it exceeded the original request. My answer originally was in direct relationship to the question, and my second answer, which I made only because your incomplete answer needs clarification is simply additional information as pertains to the_question.

"and there is much more to say beyond the info you gave at this point"
Yeah, one supposes there is. :roll:
I would think if you grasp what I said you will have eschewed making the assertion.

So was that too much or too little information? :lol: F_O
Maybe someone asking the question here wants to know more? Seriously, what do you want.
Personally I strongly feel that making the better answer is the more responsive and responsible approach.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon May 10, 2021 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2280 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Mon May 10, 2021 6:13 am

jancivil wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 6:07 am
In_fact your answer is incomplete, and I don't operate like the OP is the only reader.
Also I acknowledged it exceeded the original request.

"and there is much more to say beyond the info you gave at this point"
Yeah, one supposes there is. :roll:
I would think if you grasp what I said you will have eschewed making the assertion.

So was that too much or too little information? :lol: F_O
Maybe someone asking the question here wants to know more? Seriously, what do you want.
Personally I strongly feel that making the better answer is the more responsive and responsible approach.
I do the same. I assume other people are reading this quite far in the future!

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon May 10, 2021 6:18 am

No good deed goes unpunished
thanks, guy

KVRer
16 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Mon May 10, 2021 10:01 am

I'm grateful that jancivil is around and generously sharing the knowledge (and not bothered by typing long paragraphs to explain this abstract matter :) ). I enjoy the reading. Thank you!!

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addled muppet weed
77599 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Mon May 10, 2021 11:36 am

shawshawraw wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:01 am
I'm grateful that jancivil is around and generously sharing the knowledge (and not bothered by typing long paragraphs to explain this abstract matter :) ). I enjoy the reading. Thank you!!
:tu: :party:

not saying im a great theorist by any stretch, but jan has certainly helped me get me head around a few things, usually things i didnt even know i didnt know :)

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Tue May 11, 2021 6:29 am

thanks for kindnesses

The thing about this is we have to draw a distinction early on between diatonic and chromatic possibilities. It is said that minor key complexities, by the optional 6th and 7th are not considered chromaticism; which seems peculiar because once you bring a property from minor into major it is.
EG: you can take the ii from minor, which means an alteration of its fifth (on A, B D F) further reflected in E G# B D F, V7b9, boom, "chromatic".
The quality of the fifth was not guaranteed as in the diatonic usage. If you take III from 'harmonic minor', eg., C E G# into major, "chromatic". The quality of this fifth is not a given diatonically speaking. Ultimately we have 12 tones and may simply feel freer than that stricture.

So the assertion 'your quality of interval depends on what scale degree' holds so long as you are staying this side of a chromatic move.
I was able to talk myself convince the powers-that-be into my taking chromatic concurrently with diatonic, and I'm glad I did because that two years takes twice as long as it needed to.
Then in conservatory I wasn't allowed to bypass it but my testing put me in the one year curriculum without having to argue for it.
So I came to it with a lot of stuff received from jazz, recognizing eg., the Tristan chord as that flat five substitute concept, and knew you could simply do stuff and not be impeded by key. Making first year not boring exactly - because it was satisfying af to write music people liked in real time based in something quite dry - but vocabulary-wise, I want 'them TV chords' such as you get in jazz reharmonization class. Dealing in bop and post-bop harmony where chromaticism is desirable.
Last edited by jancivil on Tue May 11, 2021 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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