Attention Dev's Is it too much to ask for midi learn Inc/Dec ?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRian
1352 posts since 2 Jul, 2007

Post Sat May 08, 2021 10:44 am

So it's no secret that most Synths, once patch recall became a thing and available we're used by physical button's. Is it really too much to ask, that developers of Vst's offer end users a way to map their hardware simple and easy.MIDI MAPPABLE SUPPORT for PATCH CHANGES"

To those developers like Arturia and Spectrasonics who do offer midi learn via midi cc, thank you!! It actually feels like I'm playing hardware without the need for constantly picking up the mouse,which is propably the most irritating thing when working with cpu's.. There used to be a format most dev's stuck to,in terms of MIDI and program changes,but that's no longer a thing in many developers minds nor Vst's..
I recently sold off a Roland Fantom 7 because after purchasing it, and Zen Core, they still had not implemented any sort of option, so whats the point in owning an expensive controller for the software,if they don't even work well together.

Thanks!
Last edited by trusampler on Sun May 09, 2021 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cpu: Win10/Intel Core i9-10900K + Apple Mac OSX/BigSur/Slate VMS/Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Synergy Core
Synths: Sequential Prophet 10|OB-6/Deepmind 12/Virus TI2 61/Waldorf Blofeld/Yamaha Motif XS7/Akai MPC X

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KVRist
35 posts since 14 Oct, 2020 from London

Post Sat May 08, 2021 11:46 am

Just use Bitwig, you can map anything you want and always the same way. You can even save presets with mappings.
I'm having a lot of fun!

KVRian

Topic Starter

1352 posts since 2 Jul, 2007

Post Sat May 08, 2021 11:51 am

Not sure about Bitwig, but I do use a similar resaving feature in Cubase and Studio One, but we're talking about saving hundreds, in some cases thousands of presets. When the synth comes out with more presets, oops, let's save them again one by one. No dice..
A simple midi learn is not a huge request, especially when the code is present to map parameters,yet no love for patch changes.
Again I don't know exactly how Bitwig works,but
I'd hate to have to change daws,all because of a feature that DEVs are overlooking in many synths.
Cpu: Win10/Intel Core i9-10900K + Apple Mac OSX/BigSur/Slate VMS/Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Synergy Core
Synths: Sequential Prophet 10|OB-6/Deepmind 12/Virus TI2 61/Waldorf Blofeld/Yamaha Motif XS7/Akai MPC X

KVRAF
5719 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA

Post Sat May 08, 2021 1:47 pm

I think most (or maybe at least maybe 2/3) synth/sampler plugins have it, but for those that don't, I am not sure why it isn't included.

KVRAF
28440 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Sat May 08, 2021 2:14 pm

Even after 2 or 3 times I read the original post now, I'm not sure if I understand it correctly. Could you elaborate? What are you asking for? Simple MIDI learn on plugins? Most plugins allow that. The one or two which don't, I set up specific controller templates, learning the controllers knobs and sliders to the fixed MIDI CC's that the plugins use.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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KVRAF
5656 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Sat May 08, 2021 9:33 pm

trusampler wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:51 am
Not sure about Bitwig, but I do use a similar resaving feature in Cubase and Studio One, but we're talking about saving hundreds, in some cases thousands of presets. When the synth comes out with more presets, oops, let's save them again one by one. No dice..
A simple midi learn is not a huge request, especially when the code is present to map parameters,yet no love for patch changes.
Again I don't know exactly how Bitwig works,but
I'd hate to have to change daws,all because of a feature that DEVs are overlooking in many synths.
According to the thread title, its not trivial to distinguish between encoders, pots and buttons. Encoders create jumps between 127 and 1, buttons between 0 and 127, pots send neighbor values - it should be possible, except for pads, as those send multiple cc at almost the same time.
But in general its a bad idea to save mappings in a preset. The DAW has to tackle it and assign Midi cc to automatable parameters. Its better the DAW remembers it for each device. In Bitwig you simply have an extra layer of controls which control a parameter. This will be the same if you load the same VST...
Demand such a feature at the devs of your preferred DAW. It has the advantage that you know to whom you need to talk...
Btw. in the not so far future with Midi 2.0 this could move back into the synth, as then the synth and the controller could talk directly with each other and Midi learn will be obsolete...

KVRian

Topic Starter

1352 posts since 2 Jul, 2007

Post Sun May 09, 2021 6:49 am

chk071 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:14 pm
Even after 2 or 3 times I read the original post now, I'm not sure if I understand it correctly. Could you elaborate? What are you asking for? Simple MIDI learn on plugins? Most plugins allow that. The one or two which don't, I set up specific controller templates, learning the controllers knobs and sliders to the fixed MIDI CC's that the plugins use.
Hi,
No, what I'm asking developers for here is instead of being forced to change patches with a mouse, they start giving us the option, to midi map our buttons on our midi controllers/hardware to control the Increment/Decrement or patch changes (you know othe arrows up and down on their UI browsers, or in other words be able to change patches/with our own gear instead of using the mouse so much). Most plugins DO NOT SUPPORT THIS ;(

Arturia allows for this in V-collection and their newest plugins / hence they make hardware, so they understand the experience of real gear..
Spectrasonics understands this basic principal,as most of their experience stems from a real hardware patch designer/software programmer with actual experience with older Roland boards and a great hardware synth collection to say the least. Eric has one of the best setups I've seen.

In the case of many new dev's, they don't seem to understand that connection, maybe because they aren't actually connected with the musical experience of hardware instruments, I don't know?

This is why Maschine from N.I. or Komplete Kontrol are much more connected to the users experience and end users gravitate to it better, and are willing to spend 700 euro on stuff like this.

I hope this is starting to make more sense, I feel as if we've allowed developers to think mouse only support is what we're okay with,but it's not to MANY of us.
Cpu: Win10/Intel Core i9-10900K + Apple Mac OSX/BigSur/Slate VMS/Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Synergy Core
Synths: Sequential Prophet 10|OB-6/Deepmind 12/Virus TI2 61/Waldorf Blofeld/Yamaha Motif XS7/Akai MPC X

KVRian

Topic Starter

1352 posts since 2 Jul, 2007

Post Sun May 09, 2021 6:52 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:33 pm
trusampler wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:51 am
Not sure about Bitwig, but I do use a similar resaving feature in Cubase and Studio One, but we're talking about saving hundreds, in some cases thousands of presets. When the synth comes out with more presets, oops, let's save them again one by one. No dice..
A simple midi learn is not a huge request, especially when the code is present to map parameters,yet no love for patch changes.
Again I don't know exactly how Bitwig works,but
I'd hate to have to change daws,all because of a feature that DEVs are overlooking in many synths.
According to the thread title, its not trivial to distinguish between encoders, pots and buttons. Encoders create jumps between 127 and 1, buttons between 0 and 127, pots send neighbor values - it should be possible, except for pads, as those send multiple cc at almost the same time.
But in general its a bad idea to save mappings in a preset. The DAW has to tackle it and assign Midi cc to automatable parameters. Its better the DAW remembers it for each device. In Bitwig you simply have an extra layer of controls which control a parameter. This will be the same if you load the same VST...
Demand such a feature at the devs of your preferred DAW. It has the advantage that you know to whom you need to talk...
Btw. in the not so far future with Midi 2.0 this could move back into the synth, as then the synth and the controller could talk directly with each other and Midi learn will be obsolete...
Again, not at all what I'm saying here.. I'm asking for MIDI MAPPABLE SUPPORT for PATCH CHANGES, NOTHING MORE nothing less. :tu: MIDI program INC/DEC has been a legit MIDI CC number with midi 1.0 since it's incarnation, CC 96/97 for what 40 years now? Why dev's can't do this is beyond me!
Cpu: Win10/Intel Core i9-10900K + Apple Mac OSX/BigSur/Slate VMS/Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Synergy Core
Synths: Sequential Prophet 10|OB-6/Deepmind 12/Virus TI2 61/Waldorf Blofeld/Yamaha Motif XS7/Akai MPC X

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Beware the Quoth
29493 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Post Sun May 09, 2021 8:19 am

trusampler wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:49 am
No, what I'm asking developers for here is...
...not going to happen just because you started a thread on KVR with 'attention devs' in the subject.

Because you're not going to get the attention of very many of them at all. If any.

Seriously; developers have got other things to do with their time, and to be honest, i think the 'hey all you guys everywhere; I cant even be bothered to FR this properly through your existing channels, but drop what you're doing and listen to me yell into the void' approach would be kind of annoying to most of them. You're kind of on a hiding to nothing here.

Especially in this case, since initiating patch changing was traditionally the host's job.
John Titor died for your sins!

KVRian

Topic Starter

1352 posts since 2 Jul, 2007

Post Sun May 09, 2021 8:28 am

Cool thanks for your opinion. Noted. Oddly enough, I posted this on the Roland Cloud Facebook forum, and the Developer replied, that they are working on it..Strange huh,maybe KVR just isn't the place for such requests? :tu: Good Job Roland

I like how you speak for them as well, pretty hilarious. I'm not yelling at them, how should I have wrote this? Do I need proper KVR channel elitist etiquette ? Nope I'm just a Musician with a voice, as proper as it's going to get, and if an admin had any problem with any post's I've had here for the last 15 yrs, it would have been deleted.. This reply from you is an opinion, I don't care about you FR it to anyone,or I would've asked..
I'm posting so any dev's,or future dev's that possibly are in the process of coding,wanna know why certain plugins may have better success with end users, is because SOME OF us do care about workflow here! Nothing more nothing less, and I don't understand wtf that's a problem to you..
Last edited by trusampler on Sun May 09, 2021 9:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
Cpu: Win10/Intel Core i9-10900K + Apple Mac OSX/BigSur/Slate VMS/Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Synergy Core
Synths: Sequential Prophet 10|OB-6/Deepmind 12/Virus TI2 61/Waldorf Blofeld/Yamaha Motif XS7/Akai MPC X

AnX
KVRAF
9386 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Sun May 09, 2021 8:46 am

Well, you would prob get more attention at a specific forum, ie the dev of said synths

no harm in asking here tho, for possible wider exposure, and general conversation about said subject.

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KVRAF
19106 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun May 09, 2021 8:53 am

trusampler wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:52 am
Again, not at all what I'm saying here.. I'm asking for MIDI MAPPABLE SUPPORT for PATCH CHANGES, NOTHING MORE nothing less. :tu: MIDI program INC/DEC has been a legit MIDI CC number with midi 1.0 since it's incarnation, CC 96/97 for what 40 years now? Why dev's can't do this is beyond me!
You might want to change the title and original post a bit as I had no idea what you were asking for. Your 1st post does not mention "MIDI MAPPABLE SUPPORT for PATCH CHANGES"

KVRian

Topic Starter

1352 posts since 2 Jul, 2007

Post Sun May 09, 2021 8:53 am

AnX wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:46 am
Well, you would prob get more attention at a specific forum, ie the dev of said synths

no harm in asking here tho, for possible wider exposure, and general conversation about said subject.
Thanks for the tip! As mentioned in the case of Roland on Facebook, they did respond when I went right to them, so thanks.. I do know KVR have a rather large developer base,and some guys are getting their feet wet coding,and making great plugins, so this was definitely meant to hit any who see this..

SORRY IF THIS BOTHERED ANYONE!
Cpu: Win10/Intel Core i9-10900K + Apple Mac OSX/BigSur/Slate VMS/Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Synergy Core
Synths: Sequential Prophet 10|OB-6/Deepmind 12/Virus TI2 61/Waldorf Blofeld/Yamaha Motif XS7/Akai MPC X

KVRian

Topic Starter

1352 posts since 2 Jul, 2007

Post Sun May 09, 2021 8:55 am

pdxindy wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:53 am
trusampler wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:52 am
Again, not at all what I'm saying here.. I'm asking for MIDI MAPPABLE SUPPORT for PATCH CHANGES, NOTHING MORE nothing less. :tu: MIDI program INC/DEC has been a legit MIDI CC number with midi 1.0 since it's incarnation, CC 96/97 for what 40 years now? Why dev's can't do this is beyond me!
You might want to change the title and original post a bit as I had no idea what you were asking for. Your 1st post does not mention "MIDI MAPPABLE SUPPORT for PATCH CHANGES"
Again Thanks
Cpu: Win10/Intel Core i9-10900K + Apple Mac OSX/BigSur/Slate VMS/Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Synergy Core
Synths: Sequential Prophet 10|OB-6/Deepmind 12/Virus TI2 61/Waldorf Blofeld/Yamaha Motif XS7/Akai MPC X

AnX
KVRAF
9386 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Sun May 09, 2021 8:57 am

no need to apologise, I've seen this requested many times, in many diff places.

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