Arps in Synths

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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KVRAF
15500 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:45 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:58 am
You might like it, but nobody needs it,
It's a good idea to avoid terms like "nobody" or "everybody" since you don't speak for anyone but yourself. :wink:
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:58 am
The argument to have it in a single preset isn’t too strong either, as that is a functionality your host should deliver (like in Bitwig).
It's a very strong argument when you realize synth presets can be used in more than one DAW. I find having everything in a preset much more efficient that faffing about in any DAW but that's just me and I don't pretend to speak for everyone or anyone other than myself.
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:58 am
I suspect its just for the sound designers which have to come up with sounds and sequences which sell the thing…
I haven't sold a patch in years but I use my own Arp/Seq patches every day and in every project. That's just the way I like to work.
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:58 am
A missing arpeggiator will never ever prevent you from using an arpeggiator. Your music gets done, its not a limitation at all
A missing filter will never prevent you from using an external filter. Your music will get done it's not a limitation at all....

But it's not just about getting done it's about getting more done by being efficient and efficiency will vary from person to person.

I find built in Arp/Seqs indispensable to the way I work and you don't. Neither of us are right and neither of us are wrong. We simply work in different ways...... :wink:
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KVRAF
19426 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:09 am

Teksonik wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:45 am
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:58 am
A missing arpeggiator will never ever prevent you from using an arpeggiator. Your music gets done, its not a limitation at all
A missing filter will never prevent you from using an external filter. Your music will get done it's not a limitation at all....

But it's not just about getting done it's about getting more done by being efficient and efficiency will vary from person to person.

I find built in Arp/Seqs indispensable to the way I work and you don't. Neither of us are right and neither of us are wrong. We simply work in different ways...... :wink:
I'm in the middle...

I value having built-in arp/sequencers in synths. I often end up using the Bitwig Arp because it responds to MPE playing and it is easy to do creative stuff with it that I cannot do with built-in arps.

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KVRAF
5837 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:18 am

Teksonik wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:45 am
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:58 am
You might like it, but nobody needs it,
It's a good idea to avoid terms like "nobody" or "everybody" since you don't speak for anyone but yourself. :wink:
I must admit this was purposely provokative. (Nobody needs a synth, especially if you are hungry.) It was a reaction to the op’s demand, as with missing arpeggiators you are not completely lost. Its fine to demand it and want it, but its definitely not as essential as a filter. You can’t work around a missing filter with its envelope, at least its hard for monophonic and almost impossible for polyphonic synths… Working around a missing arpeggiator takes less time than writing a post on KVR, but it would take a lot of time for a dev to implement it…

KVRAF
22313 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:54 am

I don't go with 'arpeggiator crucial for sound design' as a general statement. I'm sure it was said with something specific in mind, where I'm sure it's true for the one who said it for those things.
But I have never actually used an arpeggiator to get an arpeggio together, or haven't noticed any synth plugin I use has it in the design.
I have used sequencers in instruments for reasons (as well as pretty elaborate LFO and rhythmic delay) but breaking a chord into its parts was not the reason. . Sure, some synths have integrated it in the design in a way a MIDI plugin isn't. There are other ideas of music than repeating arpeggi, a pretty specific style characteristic in the bigger picture, so, essential, donno about that. Once erpon a time there wasn't one, unless a mad scientist had some way. :)

KVRist
418 posts since 21 May, 2016

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:02 pm

If you can stomach codemeter protection, maybe try demoing Avenger if arps are important to you. It’s got, IMHO, the best arp I’ve seen on a synth or standalone plugin.

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KVRAF
15500 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:02 pm

Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:18 am
You can’t work around a missing filter
I've done tons of patches that don't use a filter so it's possible to work around a missing filter.
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:18 am
Working around a missing arpeggiator takes less time than writing a post on KVR,
Not if you understand that a built in Arpeggiator is part of a synth and the sounds it can make. Tacking on an external Arp won't get you the same results just as tacking on an external filter won't give you the same results.
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:18 am
it would take a lot of time for a dev to implement it…
And? I imagine it would take a lot of time to implement MPE support or microtuning support or a fancy preset browser which are all things I don't want or need but I understand that other people do.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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KVRAF
19426 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:18 pm

Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:18 am
You can’t work around a missing filter with its envelope, at least its hard for monophonic and almost impossible for polyphonic synths… Working around a missing arpeggiator takes less time than writing a post on KVR, but it would take a lot of time for a dev to implement it…
I appreciate synths that have arps, but as you say, external is easy so a synth that has no arp would not affect my decision to buy it.

Here I'm using the Arp in Bitwig to play a single Hive patch... this example is from a single clip with one long midi note. Not many synths have a built-in Arp than could do this... so it is not like external arps are less capable than built-in ones.

https://dandelionaudio.com/sound/B-arp.mp3

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GRRRRRRR!
11916 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:45 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:40 am
Speaking of Arps...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOgBbSZae-k
When did Haken get involved with Osmose? That still looks like a hand-made prototype to me and the price is a little on the high side.
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:58 am
You might like it, but nobody needs it, same with other fx especially reverbs. The argument to have it in a single preset isn’t too strong either, as that is a functionality your host should deliver (like in Bitwig).
I suspect its just for the sound designers which have to come up with sounds and sequences which sell the thing…
Yeah, it's something I see when involved in beta testing - most of the beta-testers are there to help make the factory preset banks so most of the feedback the dev gets is from people whose only interest is in making presets and they want everything built into the synth. From what I've seen, it definitely skews development towards that kind of thing.

I used to rebel against it by turning off all the on-board effects but these days I just go with it and instead I have pretty much stopped using Insert and Send effects.
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KVRAF
19426 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:49 pm

BONES wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:45 pm
pdxindy wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:40 am
Speaking of Arps...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOgBbSZae-k
When did Haken get involved with Osmose? That still looks like a hand-made prototype to me and the price is a little on the high side.
Haken has been involved from the beginning. Osmose uses the same synth engine as the Continuum. The EaganMatrix

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KVRian
1157 posts since 17 Jul, 2007 from Baghdad-Iq

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:29 pm

Whether they are complex Midi phrase sequencers or simplest classic arps, they can be used as modulation sources to control parameters (many plugins implement this approach).
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KVRAF
3311 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:15 pm

I can't see any downside to having an arp built into a synth. I don't use them too often, but they are fun when you want/ need them.
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

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KVRian
1245 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:56 am

Sequencers and Arp can be a great addition to the synth. Especially when it's something like sequencer in Pigments - this stuff is not available in every DAW so there's no excuse á la "but you can do it in DAW".
I wish more synths had this type of sequencer/arp.
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KVRAF
5837 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:25 pm

Get a good arp vst and all of your synths can be arpeggiated with it… You could fulfill your wish if you wish. That is my point…
For example: most included arps do not arpeggiate in the order I play. That is the mode I like most. Then I need to use an extra arp anyway, seems like a waist of code and UI real estate and learning resources to me. And I can assure, internal or external, arps sound the same, they don’t have a sound of their own. They differ in features, and a dedicated arp should have more features than a built in, as this is its main purpose…
If I want a specific feature for an arp I am missing I can request that feature to the arp programmer, good luck with getting this feature into all the synths with arps - no, forget it, give up on that…

KVRist

Topic Starter

46 posts since 29 May, 2013 from Durham

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:12 pm

pixel85 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:56 am
Sequencers and Arp can be a great addition to the synth. Especially when it's something like sequencer in Pigments - this stuff is not available in every DAW so there's no excuse á la "but you can do it in DAW".
I wish more synths had this type of sequencer/arp.
100% agree. - I too wish more synths (and maybe DAWs too) had arps like the one in Pigments. Max for live had some sequencers a few years ago that had randomization, but Max was never stable for me (every other audio software was stable - only max devices crashed Ableton. - but that was 8 years ago)......so , yes, please more Arp like the Pigments one

I tried kirnu cream many years ago, but it was so so fiddly to use...the pigments arp does so much but is also intuitive and not over cluttered UI.
Zen

KVRian
1209 posts since 23 May, 2012 from London

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:48 pm

Classic KVR, a bunch of middle aged men arguing over whether or not arpeggiators are useful in synths or not. Let's just do away with MIDI and synths altogether because you can simply sequence audio in your DAW :lol:
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