Why you left Ableton?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRAF
7696 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:30 am

lpr wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:44 am
Ableton costs too much to maintain. The piano roll and the everything on one screen is a drag as well.
Cost me less to maintain (assuming you always want the latest version) that Bigwig, Studio One or Cubase did....

There have only been 3 paid updates in Live since 2013 (live 9, 10 and 11!) So its cost me about £400 to stay up to date for 10 years (£40 a year) assuming they don't realise Live 12 next year :wink:

You can have multiple screens even on separate monitors with Live, personally I don't DAWS with separate 'windows' for stuff....one of the things people like about Live is the clean uncluttered look and simplicity- not many key commands to learn, not many tools to master and just 'tab' between the two screens (if indeed you need to).
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRist
343 posts since 29 Apr, 2019

Post Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:30 am

apoclypse wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:25 am
MuzikFreq wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 am
EnGee wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:58 am
@SLIC and Dalle:
Thanks guys 😀 I'll check all your info tomorrow morning :) I've just finished a crash course about Live 11 and I'm ready to record and edit my ideas in this wonderful DAW.

@MuzicFreq:
Tell me then what is the shortcut to set a marker!

 
You were not specific about a certain shortcut and bundled it in the same sentence as no hardware support.

 
It looked pretty specific to me. If you actually read the whole paragraph you would have seen that they were specifically talking about markers in the preceding sentence. So it stands to reason that the sentence you are referring is talking about markers not having shortcut or hardware support.
I can’t choose between Live and Logic because they are different. But between Bitwig and Live I choose Live because of the good hardware support and for my workflow, Live is faster. For example, I use markers a lot and I jump a lot among them. Here, Bitwig is pathetic and no way to set a marker other than right click a header and add it! No shortcuts and no hardware support. I really thought they’ll improve it in version 4, but nothing. In Live I use nanoKontrol “set” marker while playing then just jump between them with the arrow buttons. The best DAW in this regard is Reaper! Just ctrl + number, mark it, then just hit that number and you are there!

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KVRAF
7192 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from Auckland, NZ

Post Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:53 am

MuzikFreq wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 am
EnGee wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:58 am
@SLIC and Dalle:
Thanks guys 😀 I'll check all your info tomorrow morning :) I've just finished a crash course about Live 11 and I'm ready to record and edit my ideas in this wonderful DAW.

@MuzicFreq:
Tell me then what is the shortcut to set a marker!
You were not specific about a certain shortcut and bundled it in the same sentence as no hardware support.
No! It's just you being smart-ass, so try to not be next time, ok?

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KVRist
343 posts since 29 Apr, 2019

Post Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:13 pm

EnGee wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:53 am
MuzikFreq wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 am
EnGee wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:58 am
@SLIC and Dalle:
Thanks guys 😀 I'll check all your info tomorrow morning :) I've just finished a crash course about Live 11 and I'm ready to record and edit my ideas in this wonderful DAW.

@MuzicFreq:
Tell me then what is the shortcut to set a marker!
You were not specific about a certain shortcut and bundled it in the same sentence as no hardware support.
No! It's just you being smart-ass, so try to not be next time, ok?
Or maybe you can try proper sentence structure and punctuation.

KVRian
650 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:13 pm

MuzikFreq wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:30 am
apoclypse wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:25 am
MuzikFreq wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 am
EnGee wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:58 am
@SLIC and Dalle:
Thanks guys 😀 I'll check all your info tomorrow morning :) I've just finished a crash course about Live 11 and I'm ready to record and edit my ideas in this wonderful DAW.

@MuzicFreq:
Tell me then what is the shortcut to set a marker!

 
You were not specific about a certain shortcut and bundled it in the same sentence as no hardware support.

 
It looked pretty specific to me. If you actually read the whole paragraph you would have seen that they were specifically talking about markers in the preceding sentence. So it stands to reason that the sentence you are referring is talking about markers not having shortcut or hardware support.
I can’t choose between Live and Logic because they are different. But between Bitwig and Live I choose Live because of the good hardware support and for my workflow, Live is faster. For example, I use markers a lot and I jump a lot among them. Here, Bitwig is pathetic and no way to set a marker other than right click a header and add it! No shortcuts and no hardware support. I really thought they’ll improve it in version 4, but nothing. In Live I use nanoKontrol “set” marker while playing then just jump between them with the arrow buttons. The best DAW in this regard is Reaper! Just ctrl + number, mark it, then just hit that number and you are there!

Again read the previous sentence. You can’t just take one sentence in a paragraph out of context like that. He said markers in bitwig didn’t work the way he liked and pointed to what specifically he did not like. He didn’t say Bitwig didn’t have any shortcuts at all.

So either you have issues with reading comprehension, or you are just being deliberately obtuse.
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

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KVRAF
7192 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from Auckland, NZ

Post Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:50 pm

MuzikFreq wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:13 pm
EnGee wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:53 am
MuzikFreq wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 am
EnGee wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:58 am
@SLIC and Dalle:
Thanks guys 😀 I'll check all your info tomorrow morning :) I've just finished a crash course about Live 11 and I'm ready to record and edit my ideas in this wonderful DAW.

@MuzicFreq:
Tell me then what is the shortcut to set a marker!
You were not specific about a certain shortcut and bundled it in the same sentence as no hardware support.
No! It's just you being smart-ass, so try to not be next time, ok?
Or maybe you can try proper sentence structure and punctuation.
Nothing like that! Others didn't have any problem understanding the "structure " and meaning. Your mockery was obvious for no reason other than being mean. By the way, haven't you asked a question about S1 function that I answered in other thread! So, suddenly you become an expert mocking the other now in their knowledge and language?!! Laughable!!

Sorry for the others. Let's get back to topic!

KVRAF
7696 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:40 am

OK, for the sake of friendly debate, If you left Live, what if anything would bring you back?

In clip editing was a big draw for me to BITWIG and still remains one of the remaining reasons to work in Bitwig's session mode.

Why can't we edit the audio clip in session view ! I do have a sample editor mapped to open and also use envelopes to mute bits of audio etc, so I get by- but you need to be in arrange mode to access some useful audio editing tools like Reverse seems unnecessary.

It isn't the end of the world, and in fact fast opening of an external sample editor can offer many advantages and is a good 'option'...but basic audio editing tools for clips seems like an obvious thing- I wonder if something is coming from Ableton on this?....I suspect so, they seem to have started listening to their users.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

KVRer
22 posts since 12 Jun, 2021 from Barcelona

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am

I left Live because I chose it by mistake in the first place...
After a long time (and I mean long) using Cubase I needed something that felt fresher and less tired and since Live is so popular and ubiquitous I dived right in without giving it much thought or research, and soon realised it's just not for me. Nothing at all against it. I think it's an amazing program (not sure I should call it a DAW), but I don't play live and have zero interest in sample libraries.
So recently I discovered Bitwig and turned out to be exactly what I thought Live was in the first place.

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KVRAF
9356 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:29 am

JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
...I think it's an amazing program (not sure I should call it a DAW), but I don't play live and have zero interest in sample libraries.
So many misconceptions in one short sentence...

JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
So recently I discovered Bitwig and turned out to be exactly what I thought Live was in the first place.
This is always puzzling to me. I must've heard it couple dozens of time by now. Why are people thinking that Bitwig is any more trafitional/linear DAW than Live is? Is it because that by default the former opens in Arranger, while the latter in Session View? Do people know that this depends on template being used (my Live opens in Arrangement)? It's pretty crazy (to me).
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRAF
1909 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:37 am

SLiC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:30 am
lpr wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:44 am
Ableton costs too much to maintain. The piano roll and the everything on one screen is a drag as well.
Cost me less to maintain (assuming you always want the latest version) that Bigwig, Studio One or Cubase did....

There have only been 3 paid updates in Live since 2013 (live 9, 10 and 11!) So its cost me about £400 to stay up to date for 10 years (£40 a year) assuming they don't realise Live 12 next year :wink:

You can have multiple screens even on separate monitors with Live, personally I don't DAWS with separate 'windows' for stuff....one of the things people like about Live is the clean uncluttered look and simplicity- not many key commands to learn, not many tools to master and just 'tab' between the two screens (if indeed you need to).
live has indeed a long livespan, i started with ableton 10 intro (came with Push 2), and upgraded, a few months later to live 10 suite. that was? aha march 2019. so 159 for me in 2 years, euro.

i do use 2 screens for ableton live 11 suite, one touchscreen. but with one screen it is already doable, more than..

but the touchscreen is a secondary monitor, and it has its advantages, 2 screens. besides that it is also a touchscreen...

by the way Cubase Pro 11 (my version) not a DAW? i don't install sample libraries, i used as a DAW, for creating own sounds... like bitwig studio 3.3.10, or live 11 suite. Cubase, is problably a proper DAW...

but it is all personal, o well the never ending story, a DAW. cubase gives me a lot, like live 11 suite. or bitwig studio.
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

KVRAF
7696 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:16 am

antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:29 am
JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
...I think it's an amazing program (not sure I should call it a DAW), but I don't play live and have zero interest in sample libraries.
So many misconceptions in one short sentence...

JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
So recently I discovered Bitwig and turned out to be exactly what I thought Live was in the first place.
This is always puzzling to me. I must've heard it couple dozens of time by now. Why are people thinking that Bitwig is any more trafitional/linear DAW than Live is? Is it because that by default the former opens in Arranger, while the latter in Session View? Do people know that this depends on template being used (my Live opens in Arrangement)? It's pretty crazy (to me).
I agree, there really isn't that much between Live and Bitwig in terms of workflow, they are related by blood! Clips, Racks, Internal patching...far more in common than most DAWS.

Bitwig, Live, Reaper and FL Studio all take more left field approaches to music making and are great for 'adding' to a traditional DAW like Cubase, S1 or Reaper. All of them are also cable of doing full linear arrangements, but perhaps have a slightly different focus.

Live has some very good standard DAW tools (some Bigwig doesn't have), the linked editing is very useful, mapping locators to anything, scales mode, freeze tracks, groove extract/pool, full comping, video tracks, pitch to midi... but you could go on and on listing features that DAW 'A' has that DAW 'B' doesn't... what matters is what you actually need/use and the workflow you prefer- the rest is pretty much irrelevant!

As a user of both Bitwig (since it launched) and Live (since V4), neither has showstoppers, both have things I prefer...I expect I will be using both for a long time as one will never replace the other, but one may be more suited to your individual needs.

I will say that if you haven't used Live before, it is a different paradigm in terms of what at first may seem like limited editing (just 1 tool!) and Bitwig looks more like Cubase with its 'toolkit'. The thing is once you realise how some of these other DAWS are designed to work, they don't need the 'tool kit' approach and always swapping tools...so for some that may be seen as an advantage.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
9356 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:18 am

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:16 am
Live has some very good standard DAW tools (some Bigwig doesn't have), the linked editing is very useful...
I actually think track linking is much more constraining that Bitwig's default ability to edit multiple selected events...

Image
Last edited by antic604 on Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRian
650 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:42 am

antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:29 am
JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
...I think it's an amazing program (not sure I should call it a DAW), but I don't play live and have zero interest in sample libraries.
So many misconceptions in one short sentence...

JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
So recently I discovered Bitwig and turned out to be exactly what I thought Live was in the first place.
This is always puzzling to me. I must've heard it couple dozens of time by now. Why are people thinking that Bitwig is any more trafitional/linear DAW than Live is? Is it because that by default the former opens in Arranger, while the latter in Session View? Do people know that this depends on template being used (my Live opens in Arrangement)? It's pretty crazy (to me).
It’s because if you don’t want to deal with the session view in Bitwig the arranger is actually useful and works pretty much like a traditional DAW like Cubase etc especially in the layout. I personally hate working in Live’s arranger. It’s not fun at all to me.
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

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KVRAF
9356 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:47 am

apoclypse wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:42 am
It’s because if you don’t want to deal with the session view in Bitwig the arranger is actually useful and works pretty much like a traditional DAW like Cubase etc especially in the layout. I personally hate working in Live’s arranger. It’s not fun at all to me.
And how exactly is Bitwig's arranger any closer to Cubase than Live's?
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRAF
7696 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:55 am

It pretty much does most of what you are showing, just differently? (first 20 seconds, I'm not as good at GIFs as you ;-))

https://youtu.be/1WsVIYfzpxY

One cool overlooked feature Live 11 added is that MACROS can now just be from 1 (big knob!) to 16...macro pre-sets (all mappable with random and exclude etc) also work really well and is already covered in PUSH. Bitwig obviously has pre-set and device pages, different workflow again...Live has simplicity (and keeps working with its hardware), Bitwig has depth and is more customisable.

I love that both Bitwig and Live are getting better with each release...its a competition where we all win :-)
In my personal opinion, Live 11 was a much bigger deal than Bitwig 4, but Bitwig updates differently, so lets see what in 4.1!
Last edited by SLiC on Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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