Why you left Ableton?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRAF
7714 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:53 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:34 am
SLiC wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:15 am
not MPE yet, that but that wont bother most people.
Oh Reaktor can do MPE, I made a MPE mod of microPrism with some help from a NI programmer…
https://www.native-instruments.com/de/r ... how/12065/
And there is more, but its far away from the no brainer Bitwig way of doing it…
That's pretty cool! You should help NI make everything natively MPE ;-)

Maybe I should have said 'not simple plug and play MPE yet' as MPE can be fudged in most things with multiple midi channels and duplication. I had seen some other NI MPE stuff (Kontakt libraries) but I think it was all just 'mapped' to Roli (only) devices.

MPE was one of the reasons I was using Bitwig over Live before Live 11 (really just for poly AT), but not so much now, I am happy with the way Live does it and I currently have just a SENSEL Morph (which you can get to with MAX) and a Hydrasynth. Maybe I will see more limitations when my Osmose arrives as that is fully MPE, so then I can see the edit all data in a DAW, but right now I am happy with the MPE expression and editing in Live.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
7218 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from Auckland, NZ

Post Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:06 am

Halted the usage of it under Rosetta due to the weak cpu handling compared with the native Bitwig and Logic. I will install again when a native version is available.
It's ok on Windows though.

KVRAF
7714 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:14 am

EnGee wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:06 am
Halted the usage of it under Rosetta due to the weak cpu handling compared with the native Bitwig and Logic. I will install again when a native version is available.
It's ok on Windows though.
Have you tried the beta 11.05 (its a RC) I'm on PC but people on the beta forum have been posting good results apple silicon it seems (I have been jealously looking at the results of people saying it is blindingly fast and running like butter on an M1...I have an aging i7)
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
7218 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from Auckland, NZ

Post Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:08 pm

I've tried the beta on Windows. Didn't find a big difference, but I haven't tried the beta on M1. Thanks for reminding me :tu: I'll try it today, but I expect Bitwig and Logic still run better as they are native. I'll try and report back anyway 😀

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KVRAF
7218 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from Auckland, NZ

Post Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:54 pm

Well, it seems good with some native synths I have like Serum and u-he beta synths but I load a kit from Session Drums (Live own kits) and paste into a clip a pattern, then I see about 50% CPU! What?!

I load acoustic kit in Bitwig (b5 hot just from the oven) and I don't think it is even 10%. Now, that's normal ;) So, it seems I better stick with the native M1 applications (I have really enough now) :)
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KVRAF
1683 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:14 am

Live runs "okay" on M1. It's doable, but hardly optimal. Anything native is going to be far more efficient.

Regardless, Bitwig has so many quirks that negatively impact the way I work, it's simply not an option when there's Live around. Logic is fiddly and complex in ways that also complicate my life. I'll stick with Live.

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KVRAF
7218 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from Auckland, NZ

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:04 pm

I like to use Live on Windows. The same test made only 4% of the Ryzen 5800x ! I like to use M1 more for music making because it's optimized more for that than a windows machine.

Logic has a learning curve before you can be fast with it. It's a wonderful DAW however when you dig deeper.

Even with all the negatives, I still like Bitwig and find myself creative with its instruments and environment, so I left it at this and won't try to leave any DAW that I have now! I will just use them for different projects 😀

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KVRAF
19474 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:39 pm

EnGee wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:04 pm
Logic has a learning curve before you can be fast with it. It's a wonderful DAW however when you dig deeper.
Logic is a fantastic DAW... it has a few quirks but it is so powerful and capable.

KVRian
730 posts since 14 May, 2014

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:44 pm

I've yet to do it! I've used Ableton primarily for many years since my earliest days. Fat, bloaty, not as lean as Reaper, not the best piano roll, automation isn't great ~~ but I've gotten used to all the quirks and have made it work. I have FL Studio and other DAW's loaded on my computer, but I still regularly use Ableton as my primary DAW and and it's likely to never change

Logic is really the only major DAW I've never tried and I likely never will as long as it isn't on Windows. Oh well!
Last edited by Shiek927 on Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRAF
7218 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from Auckland, NZ

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:19 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:39 pm
EnGee wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:04 pm
Logic has a learning curve before you can be fast with it. It's a wonderful DAW however when you dig deeper.
Logic is a fantastic DAW... it has a few quirks but it is so powerful and capable.
Indeed :tu:

Bitwig developers need to learn a thing or two from Logic especially the markers (that I'm keep complaining about) :hihi:
https://www.groove3.com/tutorials/Logic ... ow-Markers

KVRAF
1683 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:56 pm

I like Logic. Great bang for the buck. But it's just fiddly in some ways. What really sent me packing was its habit of recording MIDI to an existing track when none were armed and I pressed record. Yes, I should've had a track selected, but I lost some good ideas this way not realizing what had happened until much later on.

I just never really warmed to it for whatever reason, but I still use auto-sampler, and some other stuff. I just like the minimalism of Live. It's mostly out of the way when I want it to be.

KVRist
111 posts since 24 Oct, 2015

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:31 pm

Logic is pretty much a pain to me in every way compared to Live, but I keep it around for the awesome instruments and effects. You can’t freely route midi between tracks, you can’t print midi effects, you can’t do complex parallel processing with audio effects, everything just feels difficult and new features feel tacked on a very old foundation. I keep hoping they’d go the Reason route and let me use their plugins in Live.

Where’s the Why you left Logic thread? :P

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KVRAF
19474 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:12 pm

EnGee wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:19 pm
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:39 pm
EnGee wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:04 pm
Logic has a learning curve before you can be fast with it. It's a wonderful DAW however when you dig deeper.
Logic is a fantastic DAW... it has a few quirks but it is so powerful and capable.
Indeed :tu:

Bitwig developers need to learn a thing or two from Logic especially the markers (that I'm keep complaining about) :hihi:
https://www.groove3.com/tutorials/Logic ... ow-Markers
Yeah... markers, arrangement markers, track alternatives... playing compositions from the Live Loops into Arrangement and then playing an entirely different composition of Live Loops as a track alternative... and, and, and...

I think the Bitwig devs are developing stuff as fast as they can. I'm sure lots of things are on their todo list.

KVRAF
7714 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:14 pm

There are lots of other great DAWS all with their own pros and cons, but nothing in my experience even comes close to Live with PUSH2 as a unified workflow. It’s a good enough reason for me to keep using Live, it’s a different experience and I like it.

Live 11 was a massive update for PUSH as well

https://www.ableton.com/en/live/all-new-features/

The other overlooked new feature I think is scene follow actions…great video here using it as an auto sampler with randomisation and probability to make a set!

https://youtu.be/ol9AoQcNjSI
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
7218 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from Auckland, NZ

Post Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:06 pm

I had PUSH 2, but I sold it! Before that I had Maschine Mikro and sold it and now I have ATOM that I rarely use :smack:
I didn't find those pads controllers useful for me. First, I tried to learn finger drumming, but I found that playing the kick and snare (with any keys), then editing and adding with mouse is easier and more practical!
Now, I don't play live, and I don't compose this way, so PUSH, Maschine and others are not that useful for me.
For automation, I mainly use Mod Wheel or any knob for recording, but then I open the sequencer and edit by mouse, so I end with doing all by mouse and the sequencer tools.

Regarding Logic and Live workflow and abilities, well, I like both as stated. I like the simplicity of Live but I also like the complexity of Logic! Let's not forget what are you getting for just $200!! If you stick with Logic, then you just need few synths and effects, but it's for those who don't suffer from GAS! Too late for me :cry:

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