Went OTB - and then ITB again

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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KVRAF
7335 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:29 am

foosnark wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:03 am
FX pedals seemed like more of a hassle than they were worth compared to VST FX too. In fact the last straw was using Red Panda Particle 2 by controlling it via MIDI using Bitwig... I asked myself what the point was. (That said, Tensor was very cool and I kind of miss it.)
Sorry for grabbing a part of this, but after going through the same with Tensor I can relate. I was using the TouchOsc template that I reworked for landscape mode with adding a few changes to better suit what I wanted on the first page. I think it was after setting everything up just the way I wanted that I realized I didn't want to use it this way. :dog:

This isn't anything against pedals (because I love my pedals), but it was actually a nice point to discover about realizing what I personally wanted from hardware and knowing that different types of hardware can be better suited for different things.

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KVRAF
7335 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:46 am

As to the OP, I'm in the hybrid camp with noisemakers and will be ITB especially with dynamic processing for the near future (due to cost and space), but I'd love to consider some of the DIY projects later when time, space, money allow.

I definitely enjoy the freedom of not needing to look at a screen for things and I'm getting results I wouldn't get ITB which is part of the reason for expanding.

I definitely agree with Vurt about these things just being tools. I have no intention of doing anything exclusively one way or the other. I'm more interested in the results and like others, I'm learning along the way (for better or worse) about my own preferences.

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KVRAF
4295 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:55 am

I use both and a mix. One thing about ITB for me is that it tears up my body, using a mouse, sitting in front of the screen for hours generally leaves me a physical mess. OTB saves me from much of that, is quite often much more fun and interesting not to mention much cheaper in the long run than ITB. For some things ITB is more practical, though I would walk away from it all together if I could manage to, definitely. :shrug:

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addled muppet weed
86136 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:05 pm

elxsound wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:46 am
I definitely agree with Vurt about these things just being tools. I have no intention of doing anything exclusively one way or the other. I'm more interested in the results and like others, I'm learning along the way (for better or worse) about my own preferences.
thats where we differ!
im all about the process, the seeing whats possible, with whats there, in my mind at the minute.
sometimes im routing the modular, then i might move over and add wires, route that out to a different hw, then back to record :hihi:

it just depends which tools i think "might make this sound different..."

thats why my stuff is so unstructured most of the time, im just playing!

although, i do also work on "things" alongside that, often stealing moments from the freeform bits :ud:

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KVRAF
2278 posts since 8 Dec, 2008 from Global Cowboy

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:11 pm

Most people who have worked with tape machines and consoles are grateful for the workflow in the digital world for so many reasons...

At the end of the day,it's all about the painting...not the paint :wink:
No auto tune and iLok free...

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addled muppet weed
86136 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:16 pm

digitalboytn wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:11 pm
Most people who have worked with tape machines and consoles are grateful for the workflow in the digital world for so many reasons...

At the end of the day,it's all about the painting...not the paint :wink:
definitely! :tu:
give me wave files over tapes any day!
the amount of recordings i f**ked by slicing at the wrong place :dog:
and just being able to copy, rather than, record to another tape, 4 or 5 times for different fx versions...

not to mention general cleaning and maintenance, to keep the reels playing at the speed you choose.

although, dusty shitty old tape, does have a certain something of a sonic character that can be nice.
so i wouldnt mind a single r2r just to run some bits through.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:18 pm

Thanks guys for all the answers constructive and so informative. It's a pure joy to read though your experiences.
Can I throw out a thought here in the KvR-eather that might not have any kind of ground to stand on?

Might it be easier to be creative OTB? Musically speaking.

Recording takes, working with compressors and EQs - and quite possibly additional sound design - is so wonderfully fluid in the computer. Again, personally speaking, I tried to make sounds for the MC707 some months back and while the sound engine of the 707 is fairly competent, clicking around on hardware jumping through menus just to balance one parameter against each other - was a really tiring experience.

Maybe I am mixing up things and trying to look too deep.
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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KVRAF
7335 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:30 pm

I don't think that's a universal thing, where OTB is easier to be creative (musically). I think it comes down to the tasks, process (for Vurt), or results (for me) that can all play a part in the level of creative achievement.

Overall, I don't think it's about tools either. At least it shouldn't be.

I think some tools just allow some of us to be more expressive because something "clicks" where others, both in hardware and software can do the opposite if it requires a workflow that takes away from those creative moments.

KVRian
566 posts since 23 Dec, 2011

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:28 pm

OTB: 80s (ITB didnt really exist) then ITB... then OTB... then OTB+ITB.. then OTB+ITB+MobileApps

Personally - I have found it infinitely easier (for me) to record purely ITB

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KVRAF
11535 posts since 7 May, 2006 from Southern California

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:59 pm

Yeah, no universal path to creative nirvana. I don't find the same things inspiring from one day to the next.
I think it's a common mistake to chase creativity and inspiration. You can teach yourself to find inspiration in anything (though, being inspired by anything has t'sown pitfalls,lol). Lots of exercises to keep the creative juices flowing, no matter what types of tools you use... I think the most important thing is to keep doing stuff, even when you get bored or feel disappointed with the result. I'm not saying to ignore those feelings but be mindful of them and try to understand where those feelings are coming from.

Try things people told you are wrong, try breaking habits, try approaching familiar ideas from a different perspective, try using unfamiliar tools, try approximating the function of one tool with a different one...just try stuff.

You may find that as a tool or method becomes more familiar, there are fewer surprises, so it may feel less fun. You may also find that new tools are a lot of fun but require a lot of effort to fit them into a existing workflow. These are just obstacles and it's to us to decide whether to overcome them or find a different path.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:32 pm

justin3am wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:59 pm
Yeah, no universal path to creative nirvana. I don't find the same things inspiring from one day to the next.
I think it's a common mistake to chase creativity and inspiration.
Profound thinking here, and I think you are completely right. I always tend to analyse the hell out of things that work and things that doesn't work. While being analytical have its place - trying to find the perfect formula for repeating creative success is probably countering the whole mechanism of creativity.

Damn guys. KvR have come a long way since the days of "does it sound like a Virus"? :lol:
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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KVRian
1392 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Post Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:04 am

I went from ITB to OTB (Hybrid), then back to ITB and now OTB (Hybrid) again.

For good 15 years, I was only in ITB, dreaming about getting all those hardware synths and processors at the beginning of my journey. When finally I was able to afford the hardware, I bought stuff like Roland JV1080, Roland JP-08 Boutique... But after some time, I concluded that I couldn't justify the inconvenience of working with hardware. Some of the synths have the advantage of sound quality but working with, e.g. JV1080, and its tiny screen controlled with just 5 buttons or tiny knobs in JP-08. The comfort of working ITB won, and I sold most of the hardware. I just kept JV1080 for special occasions (music that requires general midi and similar sounds). So for the next few years, I was ITB again, and I swore that OTB is too much of an inconvenience these days.
As my GAS for software almost died completely (by 20 years, I collected tons of plugins of any kind), and I felt tired of looking at the screen every day, I started to look for alternatives again. Then I came across Behringer Clone Wars. When I heard their Odyssey, I fell into love at first sight. This time sonic advantage was huge over plugins, and what's more important, controls were comfortable: fader per parameter, big enough for comfortable control... Simply a fun device to play with. I bought it, then I bought effect pedals because I can't 'do synth' without delay and reverb ;) This time it's a totally different experience, and I can easily justify the inconvenience of working with hardware. I'm simply not using hardware for sound design for games tasks, because those require constant changes and rendering to show it to clients or teammates, only for music. Now Model D is on its way, and I'm planning to get polysynth, more pedals (Strymon is yummy) and one solid compressor next (no rush here, though).

So to summarize, for me, hardware must have a huge sonic and comfort advantage over ITB to justify its use. Not every device is really convenient over tweaking parameters with a mouse or midi controller (PITA in Cubase). Hybrid is the way to go for me. I'll never go fully OTB. I may go back to full ITB if it will be the only option. Who knows what the future holds for us, after all.

Ps. stuff like recording to tape etc., is absolutely NO for me. I didn't work with big tapes, but I did similar tasks with cassettes (cutting, glueing, etc.). Hell no. Recording in DAW is so much easier it's not even a competition.
Beware! The software discussed in this topic has unacceptable aliasing at -386dBTP but it can be fixed by changing the sample rate to 12Bit

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:12 am

digitalboytn wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:11 pm
Most people who have worked with tape machines and consoles are grateful for the workflow in the digital world for so many reasons...

At the end of the day,it's all about the painting...not the paint :wink:
I like this saying…but for some of us its the paint as well. Im almost completely OTB for instruments and FX…even gone dawless a few times. Is the end product any better? Not really, because my talent restricts me, but because I dont have to produce a professional product for a client, or commit to deadlines, its the only way I really want to make music. Some nights nothings made, synths are rearranged, cables are tripped over, pedals and preamps are linked…but sometimes thats just as fun…like tinkering in a garage or something.

Nothing against digital, I still have that side of my studio, but sometimes the journeys more enjoyable than the destination with hardware.

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KVRAF
7335 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Post Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:29 am

DrGonzo wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:32 pm
justin3am wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:59 pm
Yeah, no universal path to creative nirvana. I don't find the same things inspiring from one day to the next.
I think it's a common mistake to chase creativity and inspiration.
Profound thinking here, and I think you are completely right. I always tend to analyse the hell out of things that work and things that doesn't work. While being analytical have its place - trying to find the perfect formula for repeating creative success is probably countering the whole mechanism of creativity.

Damn guys. KvR have come a long way since the days of "does it sound like a Virus"? :lol:
You can always change the thread title to "What's the bestest of bestest reverbs?" for the sake of nostalgia! :ud:

I will say I think this is an interesting conversation especially at this time because the price of hardware is more accessible, along with the number of options available to choose from.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:37 pm

kcearl wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:12 am
Some nights nothings made, synths are rearranged, cables are tripped over, pedals and preamps are linked…but sometimes thats just as fun…like tinkering in a garage or something.
I had exactly this experience just a couple of weeks ago when I was rewriting a setup. I was a bit frustrated and automatically thought to myself that bloody hell plugins are so much easier, then I recognized that I actually like doing the physical rearrangements and connect the cables, and although things were going quite slow - I absolutely enjoyed myself :hihi:
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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