Went OTB - and then ITB again

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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KVRist
206 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:41 pm

I am my own safe space :)

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KVRian
960 posts since 20 Apr, 2005

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:46 pm

ThomasHelzle wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:21 am
@Hink: Can you then please explain why BONES can keep up his constant personal attacks for ages without any consequences on KVR?
I think I'm missing something here?
Dude worry about your own posts. He has lots of useful insight to share.

A quick read back in the last couple of pages shows lots of people being really pretty nasty and condescending in their messages to or about him. There are some very judgemental people here it seems, and that's worse than making the occasional blunt and curt response from time to time.

And to be on topic, it's definitely possible to make great tones from sin waves and delays within Massive X ITB. It's a very underrated synth imo.

And tools like Massive X keep me from ever wanting to go 100% OTB. What's the point these days? Hybrid is surely enough.

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KVRian
960 posts since 20 Apr, 2005

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:16 pm

zerocrossing wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:08 pm
To circle back, music is something we want to make, and people want to hear. It isn’t a necessity. I love it more than anything else, but if my house and everything burned down, I’d keep going and hopefully rebuild my collection, but life wouldn’t stop. If I couldn’t get hardware synths, I’d just load my software on to whatever computer I could get my hands on and keep going.
Errr.... music absolutely is a necessity. wtf?

And. You don't need instruments to make music.

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KVRAF
12759 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 pm

Hink wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:20 pm
What does this even mean...it what context does this matter?
It means that what makes him different is what makes him uniquely capable. It means that he can accomplish awesome things no matter what is going on with him. I then went on to compare him to Brian Eno, which I consider to be highest praise.

I'll be honest with you, when I see multi-paragraph posts of people arguing, I skip right past them without reading them. I have no idea what's going on that made you read my post in the worst way possible. I will delete all my previous posts and unsubscribe from this thread.

If anyone would like to discuss this further, please feel free to PM me.

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Rad Grandad
34892 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:01 pm

you should have read the posts...you even agreed with one poster who quoted me without acknowledgement...if you choose not to read then its on you...my points are valid and this makes you more insensitive :(

In case you care it was said music is not necessary and I am responding how it saves the lives of children on the spectrum...I really have no idea why you would take exception with that...but you didnt read it :? Duly noted :lol:
Words are a barrier to help-seeking and a motivator for making discrimination acceptable.
Mad Pride
If there is a direction to mankind, it ought to be a coming together Brian May

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KVRist
206 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:50 pm

AnX wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:25 am
He is Australian tho....
Arkansas with a beach :hihi:

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GRRRRRRR!
12572 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:21 pm

Hink wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:57 am
You see even you BONES are looking at it from your POV only as well,
Of course I do, it's unavoidable but I at least try to be objective and I try not to present my biased opinions as facts. In this kind of discussion, for example, I make it very clear that my reasons for having hardware around are mostly irrational. I like having it around but I don't feel the need to convince myself, or anyone else, that there is any measure of objective reasoning behind it. I know that if all my decisions were rational and purely objective, I wouldn't have any hardware because I know I can do a better job without it. More importantly, it should be reasonably obvious that the reasons behind that apply, to a greater or lesser extent, to pretty much everyone else. The only assumption is that everyone else wants to do the best job they can, which I know is a generalisation but, hopefully, not a million miles away from reality.
I am saying that we have five senses and the feel of an instrument may have absolutely nothing to do with what other people do, why they buy or whatever, it doesnt matter because perhaps its not our place to judge.
Absolutely and this is the kind of thing you need to get your head around when discussing MPE controllers. e.g. When I first looked at Linnstrument, I couldn't imagine why anyone would choose it over a Roli Seaboard but participating in the discussion made me realise that it's a lot more comfortable for people who can play guitar. And since I've started messing about with my Roli Lightpad, I can see how that kind of layout can be extra musical. But until you try this sort of hands-on stuff out, you can't really know.

Elsewhere, some people seem to be alright with the way a Korg Minilogue offers you knob-per-function but none of the knobs show you the current value of the parameter, which I found worse than useless. For me, the value in knob-per-function was always being able to see all the current parameter values, to get that quick overview of a patch. It was never about being able to turn the knob to change them. i.e. For me it was a visual advantage, which you just don't get from a Minilogue or most modern knob-per-function synths, whereas for others it is more about the tactile experience of turning a knob. That's why I love VSTis that have everything on a single page and why I am just as happy with a hardware synth that uses matrix-style editing (e.g. Uno or Blofeld).
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:16 am
Fun is priceless.
Fun is quite possibly the most over-rated thing ever. I tried it once, it was a horrible experience (and a lot of cute, furry animals died).
ThomasHelzle wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:21 am
@Hink: Can you then please explain why BONES can keep up his constant personal attacks for ages without any consequences on KVR?
I don't attack people, I attack the stupid things they say. I don't know any of you, I can't possibly be equipped to pass judgement on anything but what you write here. If you choose to see it as more than what it is, that's on you, not me. The personal attacks always start with others, at which point I will absolutely defend myself, as would anyone.
ThomasHelzle wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:44 am
allowing a bully to have his way doesn't benefit the community in my book.
Having the courage of your convictions is not the same as bullying. The only time I ever come close to bullying anyone here is in trying to get them to answer a reasonable question.
I refer to "You are a completely demented idiot" for using this or that controller or synth.
Which I would always preface with "in order to believe what you're saying you'd have to be..." Which is having a go at what they are saying, not at them, personally.
Why I say that KVR is a bad place to heal trauma is because here we do not have a way to know who we are talking to or what the backstory is.
So why would you take anything that is said personally? I don't. As I said yesterday, I find those attempts hilarious and pathetic, in equal measure. They don't have any effect on me at all. Why would they? Nobody here knows me so these absurd attempts at amateur psychoanalysis are highly amusing.
I come to KVR to learn about interesting stuff in the audio world, not for abuse.
As do I but the level of really bad information and advice that gets thrown around here makes it very hard for some people to sort through to find the truth.
I'm also fine with just keeping BONES muted
To me, that is the most childish and immature thing. To take deliberate steps to block out ideas that are different to your own. It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "la-la-la". I learn so much more from people I disagree with, people who challenge my preconceived notions, than I do from like-minded people. I read the Herald every day because those left-wing pinkos infuriate me, which makes me go and find out stuff for myself. OTOH, I know people whose every opinion comes from Fox News. They see nothing of the wider world, where I try to see as much as I can. I think it's healthy.
But I often find it sad when a thread that started out really interesting and informative goes down in flames again for no other reason than personal issues of a specific person that shouting at others on KVR won't solve.
What you fail to see is that that only happens because others are intolerant of opinions that differ to their own. So as soon as I challenge anything they say, they get defensive, rather than taking steps to back up their opinions, which is what I'd expect any rational adult to do. e.g. When someone asks me why I like my Uno Pro Desktop, I am more than happy to tell them in as much details as I can muster but when I ask someone why they are willing to put up with their Minilogue never showing them the current value of anything, all I get in response is "I don't have to justify myself to you", which is hardly helpful, is it?
digitalboytn wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:17 pm
At the end of the day, the focus should always be on the music and not on the tools...
Hey! You can't say that around here, mate. What were you thinking!?!
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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KVRAF
7253 posts since 7 Sep, 2006 from Roseville, CA

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:29 pm

pixel85 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:07 am
cryophonik wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:55 am
What is the definition of OTB these days anyway? An entirely hardware system, including a hardware multitrack recorder? Or is it just integrating some hardware into a computer-based DAW setup (I’d personally consider that to be hybrid)?
You answered your own question.
I would say 'full OTB' to describe a situation where someone is using only hardware without a PC. Everything that is 'mixed' is called Hybrid these days.
Yeah, you and I are certainly in agreement, but it seems that many others consider adding a hardware synth or effect to their computer/DAW to be “going OTB.” IOW, there’s really two different conversations going on here (well, maybe 4 or 5 if you count all the OT discussions :neutral: )

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:07 pm

Hink wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:01 am
I agree with the you statements but a problem has come up on KvR where we get reports because BONES simply disagrees...I'm sorry bt many of those reports clearly cannot be the threshold.
I don't have any personal beef with BONES. I often don't agree with his conclusions but I almost always fully read what he have to say.

Until page four of this thread, we were having a polite discussion. BONES came and told everybody they were morons and the thread have been a disaster ever since.

Bloody hell Hink. I don't want BONES to be banned. I want a civilised discussion about the reasons why people went from software to hardware and then back to software again. I want to know what their personal experiences and wisdom are. That premise makes is insanely rude to go out and tell a person who find themselves more creative with a hardware synthesizer without preset memories, that he/she is wrong.

That's effing madness.

This thread was not ever meant to be a place of judgement, but rather a place where to share our knowledge/experiences. If BONES experience is that a 25 dollar plugin is more useful and inspirational than a hardware synth - I can absolutely see how anyone can take that point of view. BONES says he hates messing with cables. I understand that 110% percent. No 200%. I understand it. But I don't agree with him.

Example. I hate making music with iPads. I hate it with a passion. I honestly prefer cleaning clogged/stinking pipes in the house to working with iPads. Is it ok for me to willingly seek out threads that are talking about the benefits of iPad music production and go there telling everybody they are idiots because they like to do what they do?

Of course not.
Doing something like that is like the textbook-definition of trolling.
(but honestly, I don't think BONES is trolling though).

All I am saying is, live and let live, ok?
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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KVRian
1391 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:39 pm

Bones sometimes has legit arguments and interesting stuff to say, but too often the way he behave is beyond limits. We are supposed to have civilized conversation here but it's impossible with him. It's not a discussion, it's a fight in which he must prove that what he's doing is the only right way and if not then he will use his privilege on KVR to call people names (yes, those arguments in his defence that "he was here before any of you" are as weak as Bones names calling).

I had to add him to ignore list as I don't have that much time for pointless arguments anymore.

On topic:
I would like one day to go fully OTB for my hobby music projects and leave computer for everything that can be done only on computer (syncing audio to video would be rather hard without a screen :D ).
But I can't imagine myself working with sequencers. I'm spoiled by piano roll , not to mention all those features for midi in Cubase.

I like classic hardware sequencers for stuff like randomised 303 riffs but for melodic stuff with chords it seems like a lot of effort to get something that I'm getting for granted while working ITB.

I'm pretty sure that there are more sophisticated hardware sequencers. I never investigated it that much but I have a feeling that poly sequencers with display screen are expensive af. iPad and touch screen devices are not my thing either for audio purposes.

I'm curious if anyone has been successful to go from DAW to hardware sequencers without sacrificing flexibility and comfort of using midi in DAW.
Beware! The software discussed in this topic has unacceptable aliasing at -386dBTP but it can be fixed by changing the sample rate to 12Bit

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:44 pm

pixel85 wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:39 pm
But I can't imagine myself working with sequencers. I'm spoiled by piano roll , not to mention all those features for midi in Cubase.

I like classic hardware sequencers for stuff like randomised 303 riffs but for melodic stuff with chords it seems like a lot of effort to get something that I'm getting for granted while working ITB.

I'm pretty sure that there are more sophisticated hardware sequencers. I never investigated it that much but I have a feeling that poly sequencers with display screen are expensive af. iPad and touch screen devices are not my thing either for audio purposes.

I'm curious if anyone has been successful to go from DAW to hardware sequencers without sacrificing flexibility and comfort of using midi in DAW.
Oh god no... I have tried it for years. Bought almost every hardware sequencer on the market, from low-end to crazy and high-end. I quickly ran back to the DAW with the tail between my legs :dog: :lol:
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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KVRian
1391 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:57 pm

Alright, your response is enough for me to know that it's not even worth to bother :D
Beware! The software discussed in this topic has unacceptable aliasing at -386dBTP but it can be fixed by changing the sample rate to 12Bit

AnX
KVRAF
10147 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:02 pm

This thread should be locked and bans handed out. Some of the posts and behaviour is disgusting!

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KVRAF
2277 posts since 8 Dec, 2008 from Global Cowboy

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:34 am

AnX wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:02 pm
This thread should be locked and bans handed out. Some of the posts and behaviour is disgusting!
:tu:

It has become extremely toxic and so undignified :(
No auto tune and iLok free...

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KVRian
809 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:08 am

BONES wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:21 pm
Fun is quite possibly the most over-rated thing ever. I tried it once
Must have been long time ago. A very long time. :scared:
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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