Went OTB - and then ITB again

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:14 am

DrGonzo wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:52 am
kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:31 am
No issues with midi (a lots changed since its issue)…I use it as an eight track recorder, it also disk streams any recorded audio now so you can just save to sample if you need to free up a track.

It supports 32 input/output audio, 32 usb midi tracks and 32 din midi.

Im currently using it to sequence 8 polys and 6 monos into a Soundcraft Sig 22. When I want to record through my outboard I just route it through 4 bus and 4 aux tracks on the mixer > outboard/fx > Focusrite 20i8 > Force. Really quick and simple, like a cut down standalone Ableton with a built in Push. Love it. :tu:
That sounds really neat actually. How does it deal with sync, or are you just playing in your stuff live? I honestly can't remember syncing being a problem when I owned one. Syncing external stuff with Live is something I have totally given up on. The feel gets thrown out the window. Either I'm working 100% in Live or 100% in Digitakt. Adding a sync box fixes that really well - but just adds another layer of stuff that can go wrong.
As long as you are slaving from the Akai sync hasnt been an issue for me, but you cant slave it to an external sequencer as there’s all kind of latency.

Other than a few desktops everything I have has keys, so I either play it in, sequence straight from the Force, or use a master keyboard. I use an oxygen pro as it fits my sliding drawer and aftertouch (which the Force doesnt transmit external but will receive it, bug maybe??)

I think the biggest plus for me, other than its no frills simplicity, is that it turns on like any other synth so it feels like another instrument rather than a computer (which is basically is). It exports and imports ALS so it works with the other half of my studio which is a DAW hardware/hybrid…in fact with Ableton Link you can have the entire room playing in sync. I love tech so all this nonsense is a bonus.

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KVRian
809 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:32 am

BONES wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:44 pm
Urgh! DJ shit. The stuff of nightmares.
You gonna love this performance then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEocbQu8p7U

So what do you say, old hag, ain't this just what you need to bring your oldish school EBM right into the commercial wonders of Future Pop? (or where friggin ever they want to stash it now a days).You could be rich, bro.

Oh, and you can tell me how it ends. I never got past the first 5 seconds, but a man of your stuff must be able to take a little more, right? :wink: :lol:
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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KVRAF
20441 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:51 am

kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:14 am
I think the biggest plus for me, other than its no frills simplicity, is that it turns on like any other synth so it feels like another instrument rather than a computer (which is basically is). It exports and imports ALS so it works with the other half of my studio which is a DAW hardware/hybrid…in fact with Ableton Link you can have the entire room playing in sync. I love tech so all this nonsense is a bonus.
So if you use both Live and the Force which one is master?

Bitwig imports Live files now so in theory one could use the Force and Bitwig too. (of interest to me since I use Bitwig)

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:36 am

pdxindy wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:51 am
kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:14 am
I think the biggest plus for me, other than its no frills simplicity, is that it turns on like any other synth so it feels like another instrument rather than a computer (which is basically is). It exports and imports ALS so it works with the other half of my studio which is a DAW hardware/hybrid…in fact with Ableton Link you can have the entire room playing in sync. I love tech so all this nonsense is a bonus.
So if you use both Live and the Force which one is master?

Bitwig imports Live files now so in theory one could use the Force and Bitwig too. (of interest to me since I use Bitwig)
I dont, I have done but just to see it working using the Force as master (as a rule always use the Force as master for anything). For the little I do just now (one year of home schooling two kids and another due in days) Ive almost solely used the Force to track and arrange everything. But Ive finished the mix in my DAW as thats where my main monitors etc are. Im tempted to upgrade my tracking monitors but I just bought Neumanns and a sub so not in the budget really. My last track or two were almost completely finished in the Force but fine editing and automation is fiddly and Ive nothing to pseudo master (normally use UAD plugs).

It is definitely a good addition to a hybrid studio, Id like to move away from the DAW completely but its going to take a bit more investment...but for a hybrid, getting ideas down quick and flesh out later it works well. One thing to note is I very very rarely look at the screen, most of the time its for navigation, the touch part of it really just allows my finger to be used as a mouse, then its all knobs and buttons. Keeps my focus on jamming away rather than gazing inanely at waveforms on a screen...which I quite like doing too lol

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:58 am

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:32 am
BONES wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:44 pm
Urgh! DJ shit. The stuff of nightmares.
You gonna love this performance then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEocbQu8p7U

So what do you say, old hag, ain't this just what you need to bring your oldish school EBM right into the commercial wonders of Future Pop? (or where friggin ever they want to stash it now a days).You could be rich, bro.

Oh, and you can tell me how it ends. I never got past the first 5 seconds, but a man of your stuff must be able to take a little more, right? :wink: :lol:
I think it depends how you use anything, Ive never used an instruments in it but I do have over 600 keygroups of hardware synths Ive sampled in it.

You could use it like the video, where she does a great job if its all being solely performed from the Force regardless of your likes of her genre...or it can be a studio brain, or it can be a backing band. DJ tool? thats probably furthest down the list of uses I know anyone who owns one uses it for...regardless of it having a crossfader...more a hangover from its Ableton Live roots than anything else.


I guess its like posting a video of someone using the TB303 for its original purpose, providing a bass to practising guitarists etc...it would seem lame to many.


This was all done in the Force, no onboard FX or built in synths were used...Im not saying its great but its nothing to do with being a DJ or making poppy EDM (not thats theres anything wrong with that) :tu:

https://soundcloud.com/superjakes/faultline
Last edited by kcearl on Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

KVRAF
23315 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:02 am

the music I make cannot be approached in even a remote sense let alone realized except in the box, in any number of ways, so there will never be a question

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KVRian
809 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:30 am

kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:58 am
I think it depends how you use anything, Ive never used an instruments in it but I do have over 600 keygroups of hardware synths Ive sampled in it.
To me, all this is just smile time. Don't feel like you have to justify yourself to me. I have long realised that entering threads like this is for pseudo-socalizing and entertainment only (of the friendly kind), for frankly I couldn't give a friggin flying freaky fck about what people use and even less about their opinion as to what I use. Even if I wanted to by heart. I am the kind of guy that if people insist I do one ting in a particular manner, I will do the exact opposite just to demonstrate that they can go screw themselves with a chainsaw for all I care. And when they get the obvious idea of using reverse psychology to make me do it, it is too late, and it won't work.

Suit yourself and enjoy, Earl. You have my blesssing. Same regards Bones. I am not the one who will interfere in your business. I just add some jokes from the sideline and want a share of the fun.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:35 am

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:30 am
kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:58 am
I think it depends how you use anything, Ive never used an instruments in it but I do have over 600 keygroups of hardware synths Ive sampled in it.
To me, all this is just smile time. Don't feel like you have to justify yourself to me. I have long realised that entering threads like this is for pseudo-socalizing and entertainment only (of the friendly kind), for frankly I couldn't give a friggin flying freaky fck about what people use and even less about their opinion as to what I use. Even if I wanted to by heart. I am the kind of guy that if people insist I do one ting in a particular manner, I will do the exact opposite just to demonstrate that they can go screw themselves with a chainsaw for all I care. And when they get the obvious idea of using reverse psychology to make me do it, it is too late, and it won't work.

Suit yourself and enjoy, Earl. You have my blesssing. Same regards Bones. I am not the one who will interfere in your business. I just add some jokes from the sideline and want a share of the fun.
No justification...I post my thoughts on it to inform on how I use gear in the hope it helps others considering the same. I do like to point out misinterpretations but everyone's entitled to think what they wish, we haven't lost that ability yet :)

I try (try) to avoid the combative posts, its sooo 2007 :D

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KVRAF
3260 posts since 28 Jan, 2011 from MEXICO

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:42 am

I started with software, visiting forums like gearspace made me think hardware was fun, got my first HW synth an elektron machinedrum 10 years ago.

I traded for a Nord lead 3, and I sold it for an Analog keys, then I had a blofeld, a minitaur, I sold those and got a roland system 8. I also got a empress echosystem pedal along the way-

And just this year I finally realized I really don't like the hardware workflow unless I am jamming with someone else, but I don't have a music partner and I don't want to spend more money getting more drum machines and pedals. I don't like to bounce and automate HW, I don't like the cable mess, I don't like having to deal with sync.

So I am back 100% ITB and selling my hardware.
dedication to flying

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:44 am

rod_zero wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:42 am
I started with software, visiting forums like gearspace made me think hardware was fun, got my first HW synth an elektron machinedrum 10 years ago.

I traded for a Nord lead 3, and I sold it for an Analog keys, then I had a blofeld, a minitaur, I sold those and got a roland system 8. I also got a empress echosystem pedal along the way-

And just this year I finally realized I really don't like the hardware workflow unless I am jamming with someone else, but I don't have a music partner and I don't want to spend more money getting more drum machines and pedals. I don't like to bounce and automate HW, I don't like the cable mess, I don't like having to deal with sync.

So I am back 100% ITB and selling my hardware.
cable mess? tell me about it lol, I gave up on tidy cables years ago because f**k cables :D

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KVRAF
20441 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:51 am

kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:36 am
pdxindy wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:51 am
So if you use both Live and the Force which one is master?
I dont, I have done but just to see it working using the Force as master (as a rule always use the Force as master for anything).
Thanks...

So using Force as slave doesn't work? Makes sense anyway to use it as master if one is initiating the composition there.

In any case, I wont be getting a Force anytime soon. I am quite happy with my current setup (besides lusting for a PolyBrute) and being DAW based. Maybe in a year or two it would be fun to give it a try for the hell of it.

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KVRAF
3260 posts since 28 Jan, 2011 from MEXICO

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:02 am

ANother thing, in this 10 years we got Machine and Push which greatly improved software workflow, this integrated solutions work much better for me and just use a single usb cable. I still think this kind of integrated controllers have a big space for improvements and we are still lacking a dedicated one for a synth, one of the biggest let downs has been the companies stuck with the 8knobs/fader controllers and they simply ignore or don't see the need for a better solution for synth control. The system 8 kind of did this with its own plugins but it is too big to justify, a smaller desktop unit and better software (cause the plugins are too limited and ugly GUI too) could be the way to go.
dedication to flying

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KVRAF
7279 posts since 7 Sep, 2006 from Roseville, CA

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:13 am

rod_zero wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:02 am
ANother thing, in this 10 years we got Machine and Push which greatly improved software workflow, this integrated solutions work much better for me and just use a single usb cable. I still think this kind of integrated controllers have a big space for improvements and we are still lacking a dedicated one for a synth, one of the biggest let downs has been the companies stuck with the 8knobs/fader controllers and they simply ignore or don't see the need for a better solution for synth control.
Yeah, I really wish NI would make a better and more "Komplete" version of Komplete Kontrol with more knobs/sliders and better implementation for working with other hardware synths. Also, KK does a great job of controlling my Maschine mk3, actually to the point of redundancy that they should just make a KK version that has the 4x4 Maschine pads integrated right into it. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather buy one "Kontroller" that has the capabilities of both KK and Maschine in one unit than have them separate, even if it was the same price as buying the two separately. I'm sure that will never happen, though.

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:18 am

pdxindy wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:51 am
kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:36 am
pdxindy wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:51 am
So if you use both Live and the Force which one is master?
I dont, I have done but just to see it working using the Force as master (as a rule always use the Force as master for anything).
Thanks...

So using Force as slave doesn't work? Makes sense anyway to use it as master if one is initiating the composition there.

In any case, I wont be getting a Force anytime soon. I am quite happy with my current setup (besides lusting for a PolyBrute) and being DAW based. Maybe in a year or two it would be fun to give it a try for the hell of it.
Im over synth purchases…though the polybrutes a beaut…Im into guitar purchases now lol, just bought a vox ac10 and another strat this week…now to gaze at my shoes :D

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GRRRRRRR!
12579 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:21 pm

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:51 pm
Me too. More agreements to hate. My DAW from 2008 till 2015. It was like joining a cult. The pattern approach was just the flow for me.
The pattern thing wasn't essential to me, it was the mixer-centric workflow I liked, and the fact I could see pretty much everything on one screen - the whole mixer, the whole arrangement plus whatever instrument or effect I was working on, without one thing getting in the way of the others. Of course, as instrument GUIs got larger and larger, that became less viable so the decision to move was easier in the end. My bandmate still uses Orion to generate ideas but I couldn't work between multiple hosts, it's far too annoying.
kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:12 am
This is why I just scroll over your novelettes…
And choose to ignore the real point, to which you have no response. Very helpful. It's almost as if you are looking for an insult, not looking to learn anything. Very strange.
kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:14 am
it turns on like any other synth
You have to switch it on? What a PITA that would be. When I'm in the mood to do music, my computer has usually already been on for an hour or more. It's the first thing I switch on in the morning, so I can listen to music over breakfast, and the second-last thing I switch off at night (Kobo is last). Switching on my hardware is usually way too much effort so I rarely bother when I'm working. Hardware is pretty much strictly for rehearsal, which we do elsewhere.
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:32 am
You gonna love this performance then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEocbQu8p7U

So what do you say, old hag, ain't this just what you need to bring your oldish school EBM right into the commercial wonders of Future Pop?
It's impressive for a live in the studio type thing but it would be boring as batshit to see on stage because she's stuck there, rooted to the spot. You know, like a DJ. I'm sure she could do full arrangements if she wanted to but that's clearly not what the thing is designed to do, so you'd be nuts to put up with that when you could be doing it on a laptop more conveniently, for less money.
Oh, and you can tell me how it ends. I never got past the first 5 seconds, but a man of your stuff must be able to take a little more, right?
I just let it play while I was typing. It just kind of stops at the end. But then I went and looked at some more of her stuff and discovered she uses Lumi Keys!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nfVFng ... =NeonVines

That is also impressive for the studio but not a great performance for the stage. It also just ends.

And she uses Seaboards!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DqqeQS ... =NeonVines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiltuWx ... =NeonVines

Even this one just ends. She has obviously put a lot of time and effort in. She's very good at what she does. Unfortunately, it's just a bit boring to watch.
kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:58 am
This was all done in the Force, no onboard FX or built in synths were used...Im not saying its great but its nothing to do with being a DJ or making poppy EDM (not thats theres anything wrong with that) :tu:

https://soundcloud.com/superjakes/faultline
First off, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should or that it makes sense to. But this is very much DJ music. Like that woman's stuff, it doesn't go anywhere. It just meanders along, pretty much the same all the way through. You could cut into or out of it anywhere and it wouldn't make a difference. And you're all forgetting, or maybe it just never occurred to you, that I've done a lot more with a lot less. I used to get by with a drum machine and a one track sequencer and no sampler at all. This song is from 1986, although this recording of it was a couple of years later, when I had a two-track Korg SQD-1 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxmqD82 ... Nefastuoso

Yes, all that (except the vocals, of course) from a one track sequencer! I'm actually really chuffed to see that someone has put this up on YT, it tends to be my forgotten era.
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:30 am
frankly I couldn't give a friggin flying freaky fck about what people use
Really? I pick up quite a bit from it when people are happy to discuss things, instead of getting all defensive when you ask them even a really simple question. But I am still none the wiser as to why anyone would choose something like a Force over a laptop.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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