Why Syntronik where there are VSTis?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRAF
2622 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:55 pm

SparkySpark wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:25 pm

Thanks zzz00m for the vid. Quite inspiring actually! I still fail to see the point though, as they're sampling what can be modelled.

Another thing caught my attention: the names he uses, like "String box", are not the same as the individual instruments one buys at the IK site. Does this mean that the full version of Syntronik makes pleasing presets by combining the various synths? If so, what happens if I buy one of them in the group buy (and get the others for free)? I guess the whole concept puzzles me a bit. :lol:
I won't attempt to address the samples vs. modeling debate here, as the responses here in the thread have already attempted to address that. Personal choice as always. These things are mostly designed for the player, and some of the presets are outstanding. I will admit that some are lame, and it's worth the time to audition and mark favorites. There is a limit to how many variations on the same preset that I can stand, LOL!

In my opinion, Syntronik is all about is all about capturing the "sound" of the actual vintage gear, and not being an exact representation of a specific piece of gear. Erik Norlander, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Norlander the lead sound designer sampled many of these synths from well maintained synths in his own collection.

In addition to being loaded up with these "sound" presets, I think the aim of IK was to produce a ROMpler containing an archive of classic synth sounds. There were already other models out there, and they are not trying to be that.

To answer your question about "String Box", it is available here as an individual instrument, or as part of the whole collection: https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/s ... -stringbox

Not all of the Syntronik instruments are focused on just one synth model. Some of the instruments, such as String Box, are actually a "collection" of multiple sampled instruments.

From the IK website:
Syntronik’s String Box offers a collection of classic string machines including the Arp String Ensemble, Elka Rhapsody, Hohner String Performer, Roland RS-505 and RS-09. Manufactured from 1974-1981, the ARP String Ensemble uses divide-down organ technology to provide full polyphony.
Windows10; plugins from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cakewalk, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Initial, iZotope, KV331, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, TAL, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, UVI, Vital, Waves, XLN ...

KVRAF
29506 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:01 pm

SparkySpark wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:49 pm
Thanks all for chiming in. I guess I didn't make myself crystal clear, so apologies for that.

So: IK Multimedia samples synths. Sampling in stereo, 24 bit etc etc takes up a lot of space, hence the two gigabytes (or thereabouts). I'm fine with that...

...at least if they had sampled an acoustic instrument, like a piano or a violin.

But these are SYNTHS, which have been modelled for years, as the combination of resistors, VCAs, VCFs and what have you are there for anyone to see. As I wrote, the free JX-8P clone (https://bedroomproducersblog.com/2015/0 ... -download/ , or https://sites.google.com/site/mlvst0/pg8x-2 for the direct link ) supposedly sounds really good. And since it's mimicking the inner workings of the original synths, it should be less static than a sample library. So why the hassle with huge sample libraries? As a comparison, the JX-8P clone is (apparently) 1.36 MB in size.

Note that this is meant as a legitimate question - I truly wonder. The people at IK are not stupid, and people like their Syntronik sound libraries. So what am I missing? The convenience factor?
Some people probably think that a sampled instrument will sound closer to the real deal. The problem is, it never does. At least when you compare it with a high quality emulation.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

KVRAF
13115 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:09 pm

SparkySpark wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:33 pm
Examigan wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:28 pm
Some people like the sound of the actual hardware within the samples, and others just prefer synthesis that emulates the hardware.
Ah, thanks! Interesting, so in a way it's down to whatever sounds the best. So there are in fact three options:
1. Get the clones, to get more flexibility and more variation to the sound, though perhaps not the best sound quality
2. Get the sampled synths, to get superior sound, though less varied
3. Get the original hardware ;)
You're not necessarily getting "superior sound" with samples and especially not so with a sample based product that makes use of additional shaping, e.g., filters, to provide many of the presets.

This goes for UVI as well as others. A recording of an original synth as played like you want it played IS arguably the "best sound quality" in the sense of what is being discussed here. By this I mean that the synth is playing the part for your track.

As soon as you curtail that recording by trying to generalize it to samples that other people can use, then you necessarily limit the sound quality in ways that may or may not matter.

The sound now has to be a preset. This means that it's either reasonably tame, or that the sound is what some (many?) people want, e.g., the Jump sound. Otherwise you have this huge library of sounds that not enough people can use to justify making the product.

IMNSHO, this works best with sample based synths that were used early and so it's the character of those samples that are standout, e.g., the Fairlight. Or, synths that had very little modulation to begin with, e.g., the Novachord.

If you limit the sample to basically an oscillator sample and then try to recreate the sounds with the processing in the sample playback instrument then you aren't getting all that close to the original. I wasn't impressed with IKs filters or modulation at all really. Because it's a sample based product there are severe limitations in modulation. I'm not going to repeat them, I ranted elsewhere on KVR about it at some point.

So, in many ways, products like Diva and Repro are the better answer in terms of accuracy. You get the breadth of sound and much more of the modulation capability of the original.

I do see the point in limited products that have a genre and machine focus. I have a few UVI products and they're not winning any awards for filter modeling either, but, the product itself is focused. I also like decent Kontakt libraries like Soniccouture's Novachord. Specialized libraries that push the original synth in directions that are hard to match in software may also be worthwhile. But here, the idea is that you have a niche product that is based on the extremes of analog settings. Many modular drum sample libraries might fall into this category.

IMNSHO, buying small specialized sampling tools to fill in small gaps in your modeling synths is a better approach.

/rant

KVRian
583 posts since 6 Mar, 2005 from USA

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:24 am

From the user's standpoint, do you want to have to become familiar with the signal flow of a dozen instruments, each of which is quite complex, or just the simple (and fairly universal) workings of a sample playback instrument? You'll notice that while the different instruments have different-looking panels, they're all actually the same controls.

Also, it takes a lot more work to program a synth emulation than it does it to sample one.

KVRAF

Topic Starter

2153 posts since 30 Aug, 2004 from Lancaster, UK

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:41 am

ghettosynth wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:09 pm
/rant
Thanks gettosynth for your to-the-point and frankly not very ranting :D reply.

Yes, this is basically what I expected. The whole reason why I started this thread is that the concept feel counter-intuitive to me to begin with. When I started out, we used samplers to sample everyday things (we even went to a junkyard once, hitting containers, breaking glass etc, really cool :lol: ), and synths to provide synth sounds. We also sampled some synths, or rather, drum machines (because of the short decay times; you can only do so much with 1 MB of memory). I specifically remember renting the Alesis HR-16B one day, just to sample its drums, and the people in the local music shop weren't too happy about it, as they'd prefer to sell the drum machine to me.
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:15 pm Passing Bye wrote:
"look at SparkySpark's post 4 posts up, let that sink in for a moment"
Go MuLab!

KVRAF

Topic Starter

2153 posts since 30 Aug, 2004 from Lancaster, UK

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:44 am

AnalogGuy1 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:24 am
From the user's standpoint, do you want to have to become familiar with the signal flow of a dozen instruments, each of which is quite complex, or just the simple (and fairly universal) workings of a sample playback instrument? You'll notice that while the different instruments have different-looking panels, they're all actually the same controls.

Also, it takes a lot more work to program a synth emulation than it does it to sample one.
Yes, I've been pondering this as well. But from what I can understand, each synth in Syntronik has its own set of parameters etc (to resemble the original hardware). I'm now checking out the free PPG clone (https://plugins4free.com/plugin/3226/ , 3MB), and it's supposedly a pain to tweak, as it resembles the original so well.
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:15 pm Passing Bye wrote:
"look at SparkySpark's post 4 posts up, let that sink in for a moment"
Go MuLab!

KVRAF

Topic Starter

2153 posts since 30 Aug, 2004 from Lancaster, UK

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:45 am

chk071 wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:01 pm
Some people probably think that a sampled instrument will sound closer to the real deal. The problem is, it never does. At least when you compare it with a high quality emulation.
Thanks, interesting. Then again, from a musical standpoint, how well it emulates the original shouldn't be the main thing, but how musical results one can get. Still, I get your point. :tu:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:15 pm Passing Bye wrote:
"look at SparkySpark's post 4 posts up, let that sink in for a moment"
Go MuLab!

KVRAF

Topic Starter

2153 posts since 30 Aug, 2004 from Lancaster, UK

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:48 am

zzz00m wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:55 pm
In my opinion, Syntronik is all about is all about capturing the "sound" of the actual vintage gear, and not being an exact representation of a specific piece of gear. Erik Norlander, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Norlander the lead sound designer sampled many of these synths from well maintained synths in his own collection.

In addition to being loaded up with these "sound" presets, I think the aim of IK was to produce a ROMpler containing an archive of classic synth sounds. There were already other models out there, and they are not trying to be that.
Thanks zzz00m for clarifying! It really makes sense. After all, if today's tech would have been available at the time, the synths would obviously have taken advantage of some of today's possibilities. :tu: :phones:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:15 pm Passing Bye wrote:
"look at SparkySpark's post 4 posts up, let that sink in for a moment"
Go MuLab!

KVRAF
2622 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:54 am

Erik Nolander, Syntronik sound designer.

Equipment collection pics >>> https://eriknorlander.com/equipment
Windows10; plugins from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cakewalk, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Initial, iZotope, KV331, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, TAL, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, UVI, Vital, Waves, XLN ...

KVRAF
29506 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:24 am

SparkySpark wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:45 am
Thanks, interesting. Then again, from a musical standpoint, how well it emulates the original shouldn't be the main thing, but how musical results one can get.
Well... there could be one or two cases where emulations are bought for their musicality, but, in general, I would say that they are measured, and get bought for their authenticity. The best scenario would be, of course, that you have both: An authentic emulation of a musical instrument.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

KVRAF
22881 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:12 am

Well, I wouldn't have that particular thing taking up very much space, but I was never interested in it to begin with. I'd rather have a model of functions and it be a synth rather than this sort of approach. 2GB wouldn't kill me, but... I quit consuming IKM completely, they're going to change the internal ID for the T-Racks line some time again before too long (I don't even get why this happened last year: just_don't_do_this) so I don't like to even use the T-Racks stuff because one day soon it won't work. If they tested it in VE Pro they'd know this, but no. They should know from me telling them, but the customer is always wrong, isn't it.

KVRAF

Topic Starter

2153 posts since 30 Aug, 2004 from Lancaster, UK

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:52 pm

jancivil wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:12 am
2GB wouldn't kill me, but...
Well, 2 GB (or so) per instrument, that is around 50 GB for every instrument/collection in the Syntronik range. I'd need to purchase a dedicated disk drive to accomplish that, and then bring it with me whenever I'd like to make music, so space is not unimportant to me at least. Still, I figure that for people using their computers only in the studio, this wouldn't be much of a hassle.
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:15 pm Passing Bye wrote:
"look at SparkySpark's post 4 posts up, let that sink in for a moment"
Go MuLab!

KVRAF
6019 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:23 pm

Bully is free at the moment https://audioplugin.deals/
and there's a free version of Syntronik on the IK website if you want to try it out.

KVRer
20 posts since 20 Sep, 2021

Post Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:03 am

With the groupbuy I took all the single syntronik vst; anyone knows if they are the exact same of the deluxe edition or something it's still different?

KVRAF
9953 posts since 2 Sep, 2003 from Surrey, UK

Post Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:50 am

Syntronik Deluxe contains all 22 synths, If you have them all then you are good to go.
https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/s ... nik-deluxe
DarkStar, ... Interesting, if true
Inspired by ...

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