Plogue OPS7 (bit-accurate DX7 emulation!)

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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KVRian
1136 posts since 8 Feb, 2013 from Switzerland

Post Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:16 am

davidv@plogue wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:23 am
We actually have an FS1R and most other mainline Yamaha units of the 80s and 90s. Only thing missing is a FVX-1 (we accept donations). Not sure about the financial success part though.
Yamaha FS1R as software plug that offers an elegant user interface would be an instant buy here. :tu:

By now you've done the absolute coherent Yamaha DX7 Mk1 series emulation ever made. Congratulations! :)

Please stay on that path and realize projects which are something very good instead all a little.

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fmr
KVRAF
10542 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:29 am

crickey13 wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:38 am
Bick Tick Rhino can capture that SY vibe, it's kind of outdated in operation though.
I know Rhino, but we are not talking about "vibe", rather an emulation, something where we can recreate the exact same sounds we have in the SY. And Rhino is VERY distant of the SY.

Regarding the "vibe", Rhino is much closer to the DX (of which it can even read the SYX, if I'm not mistaken) than to the SY, although it goes beyond it by using samples, etc.

The SY is much more than that.
Fernando (FMR)

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KVRian
531 posts since 27 Aug, 2020

Post Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:03 pm

fmr wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:29 am
I know Rhino, but we are not talking about "vibe", rather an emulation, something where we can recreate the exact same sounds we have in the SY. And Rhino is VERY distant of the SY.

Regarding the "vibe", Rhino is much closer to the DX (of which it can even read the SYX, if I'm not mistaken) than to the SY, although it goes beyond it by using samples, etc.

The SY is much more than that.
I know, I wouldn't mind a dedicated SY emulation myself. Rhino is kind of cumbersome to program, I hope it finally gets updated and gets a modern GUI.

KVRAF
13133 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:23 pm

Etienne1973 wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:16 am
davidv@plogue wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:23 am
We actually have an FS1R and most other mainline Yamaha units of the 80s and 90s. Only thing missing is a FVX-1 (we accept donations). Not sure about the financial success part though.
Yamaha FS1R as software plug that offers an elegant user interface would be an instant buy here. :tu:
I think that quite a few, emphasis on few, people would be interested by that. I think that many more would be just as uninterested as they were in the original, which is, of course, one of the reasons the prices are so high now.

Personally, I'm not into emulations, per se, but I would like to see more efforts in serious synthesizers that are conceptually similar to the SY99. IMO there's no need to negotiate a license for the samples, but I know the emulation purists don't agree.

I'm curious though, as much attention as emulations get, what consumer attributes drive the market? With analog emulations I think that it can be as simple as nostalgia and that nostalgia is born out by just making the synth sound good. You see this expressed here often. It doesn't matter how good really the emulation was, at point of release there are plenty of followers who express content at having the synth back in their studio again. I seem to recall posts like this about the Pro-53.

With FM synths though, there is a disconnect such that it's hard for someone not into somewhat serious sound design to make it sound good. Hence, they are much more dependent on patch libraries. You can see some of that perspective in this thread, or almost any other thread on FM for that matter.

I think that the DX7 is a relatively safe bet because of the vast numbers, but I imagine that only a small fraction of people who would buy "the most accurate DX7 emulation to date" even know about the FS1R, let alone lust over it.

Finally, there's actually an issue with the purists vs the non-purists with the FS1R and SY99 that doesn't exist with the DX7. Namely, they have filters that don't sound good. The Purists will want them to sound like the original, warts and all, whereas others will want a modern approach.

Bottom line for me, the book is unfinished on the definitive FM synth, but I don't think chasing nostalgia is going to deliver the winner.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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fmr
KVRAF
10542 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:48 pm

ghettosynth wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:23 pm
Etienne1973 wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:16 am
davidv@plogue wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:23 am
We actually have an FS1R and most other mainline Yamaha units of the 80s and 90s. Only thing missing is a FVX-1 (we accept donations). Not sure about the financial success part though.
Yamaha FS1R as software plug that offers an elegant user interface would be an instant buy here. :tu:
I think that quite a few, emphasis on few, people would be interested by that. I think that many more would be just as uninterested as they were in the original, which is, of course, one of the reasons the prices are so high now.

Personally, I'm not into emulations, per se, but I would like to see more efforts in serious synthesizers that are conceptually similar to the SY99. IMO there's no need to negotiate a license for the samples, but I know the emulation purists don't agree.

I'm curious though, as much attention as emulations get, what consumer attributes drive the market. With analog emulations I think that it can be as simple as nostalgia and that nostalgia is born out by the east of making the synth sound good. You see this expressed here often. It doesn't matter how good really the emulation was, at point of release there are plenty of followers who express content at having the synth back in their studio again. I seem to recall posts like this about the Pro-53.

With FM synths though, there is a disconnect such that it's hard for someone not into somewhat serious sound design to make it sound good. Hence, they are much more dependent on patch libraries. You can see some of that perspective in this thread, or almost any other thread on FM for that matter.

I think that the DX7 is a relatively safe bet because of the vast numbers, but I imagine that only a small fraction of people who would buy "the most accurate DX7 emulation to date" even know about the FS1R, let alone lust over it.

Finally, there's actually an issue with the purists vs the non-purists with the FS1R and SY99 that doesn't exist with the DX7. Namely, they have filters that don't sound good. The Purists will want them to sound like the original, warts and all, whereas others will want a modern approach.

Bottom line for me, the book is unfinished on the definitive FM synth, but I don't think chasing nostalgia is going to deliver the winner.
You are very much right in pretty much everything you say, of course. But I think you understimate both FS1R and SY99 appeal (have you looked at the prices usually asked for second hand units?). The SY99 is a pretty complete workhorse "per se", with the ROMpler part, the user samples import part, the advanced FM, and the ability to combine samples and FM, using the former as inputs for the modulators of the FM algorithm chain (what they called Realtime Convolution and Modulation - RCM). Add to this that it could use up to four layers (Elements in Yamaha nomenclature). And you can even draw your own algorithms.

Now the filters: Both are not anything to write home about , certainly not on pair with the (good) analog ones. But they aren't bad either, especially the FS1R (EvilDragon can say a word about this snce he owns a real FS1R). But nothing prevents a soft SY99 or a soft FS1R of offering more and better filters. The same goes to the ROMs. They can provide expanded ROMs (I don't think that's even needed, since the engine can import user samples). I am not a purist in what concerns emulations, and as long as I can recreate the original sounds good enough to use them in a mix, I would be more than happy. Anything else would be just icing on the cake.
Fernando (FMR)

KVRAF
6142 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:32 am

fmr wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:48 pm
The SY99 is a pretty complete workhorse "per se", with the ROMpler part, the user samples import part, the advanced FM, and the ability to combine samples and FM, using the former as inputs for the modulators of the FM algorithm chain (what they called Realtime Convolution and Modulation - RCM). Add to this that it could use up to four layers (Elements in Yamaha nomenclature). And you can even draw your own algorithms.
That sounds similar to Tracktion's F.'em.

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KVRAF
21939 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:35 am

ghettosynth wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:23 pm
Namely, they have filters that don't sound good.
AN1x filters in FS1R are very very good IMO. Smoooooooth. But that's because AN1x overall kicks ass soundwise. The only negative is, once you enable them on FS1R, you get half polyphony (down to 16 voices then).

KVRian
889 posts since 29 Oct, 2015 from Jupiter 8

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:00 am

Of course i wouldn't complain if an FS1R finally got emulated, but a (truly) naive question, as i'm not familiar with FM synths: what groundbreaking “new“ technology / possibilities would we gain in VSTi-land when there are already some capable synths like Sytrus, FM8, Phase Plant et al, other than that we maybe finally have our lust for a specific iconic synth satisfied?
Last edited by FapFilter on Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
There's no Logic to Windows

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10542 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:00 am

Examigan wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:32 am
fmr wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:48 pm
The SY99 is a pretty complete workhorse "per se", with the ROMpler part, the user samples import part, the advanced FM, and the ability to combine samples and FM, using the former as inputs for the modulators of the FM algorithm chain (what they called Realtime Convolution and Modulation - RCM). Add to this that it could use up to four layers (Elements in Yamaha nomenclature). And you can even draw your own algorithms.
That sounds similar to Tracktion's F.'em.
I am following F'em... Just waiting it reaches the right price :wink:

But I'm not aware F.em can use samples.
Fernando (FMR)

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10542 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:04 am

FapFilter wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:00 am
what groundbreaking “new“ technology / possibilities would we gain in VSTi-land when there are already some capable synths like Sytrus, FM8, Phase Plant et al, other than that we maybe finally have our lust for a specific iconic synth satisfied?
Man... Where should I start? It's so much more than any of the examples you gave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_FS1R

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-fs1r

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2009 ... nthesizer/
Fernando (FMR)

KVRian
889 posts since 29 Oct, 2015 from Jupiter 8

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:17 am

Hmm, only skimmed through these, as it's a ton of text

On a first glimpse the formant stuff seems to be one of it's most highlighted features, but can't these be done with other synths who have additive and / or wavetable features, among other ways like filters?
Last edited by FapFilter on Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
There's no Logic to Windows

KVRAF
6142 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:18 am

fmr wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:00 am
Examigan wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:32 am
fmr wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:48 pm
The SY99 is a pretty complete workhorse "per se", with the ROMpler part, the user samples import part, the advanced FM, and the ability to combine samples and FM, using the former as inputs for the modulators of the FM algorithm chain (what they called Realtime Convolution and Modulation - RCM). Add to this that it could use up to four layers (Elements in Yamaha nomenclature). And you can even draw your own algorithms.
That sounds similar to Tracktion's F.'em.
I am following F'em... Just waiting it reaches the right price :wink:

But I'm not aware F.em can use samples.
Yep. Two of the 11 ops are multisample operators, and you can frequency modulate any of the other operators with them, or they can be modulated by any of the other types of operators.

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KVRAF
5942 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:31 am

gentleclockdivider wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:25 am
Suggestion ,changes to operator gain and envelopes do not require a new gate on message to be executed.
It's one of the features that imho should not have been modelled .
I agree -- I used OPS7 for a drone in a recording last night and was disappointed to find that I couldn't modulate the operator levels from the host or a hardware controller because it needed a new Note On to update. The ratio updates live, but the level doesn't... :(

In the interests of perfect emulation I guess this should be an option though.

User avatar
KVRAF
16435 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:32 am

ghettosynth wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:23 pm
I'm curious though, as much attention as emulations get, what consumer attributes drive the market? With analog emulations I think that it can be as simple as nostalgia and that nostalgia is born out by just making the synth sound good. You see this expressed here often. It doesn't matter how good really the emulation was, at point of release there are plenty of followers who express content at having the synth back in their studio again. I seem to recall posts like this about the Pro-53.
One can easily have nostalgia for synths that aren't analog and the point is to make any synth "sound good". :wink:

None of my favorite synths from back in the day were analog and I find an F1SR or SY99 or Ensoniq VFX or Fizmo etc emulation far more appealing than yet another boring analog emulation.

How many different ways do we need to run a saw wave through a filter ?

I get it we're in the "second age of analog" now but some of us who lived through the first age don't share the same nostalgia and lust for analog as those who are experiencing it for the first time. Not everybody breaks synthesis down to filters. There is so much more to synthesis.

Anyway I say bring on emulations like the FS1R and SY99. Or spend time creating something completely new but I'd say we've got enough analog emulations to last several lifetimes.... :shrug:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

KVRist
424 posts since 27 Apr, 2006

Post Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:35 am

Teksonik wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:32 am
ghettosynth wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:23 pm
...
One can easily have nostalgia for synths that aren't analog and the point is to make any synth "sound good". :wink:

None of my favorite synths from back in the day were analog and I find an F1SR or SY99 or Ensoniq VFX or Fizmo etc emulation far more appealing than yet another boring analog emulation.

How many different ways do we need to run a saw wave through a filter ?

I get it we're in the "second age of analog" now but some of us who lived through the first age don't share the same nostalgia and lust for analog as those who are experiencing it for the first time. Not everybody breaks synthesis down to filters. There is so much more to synthesis.

Anyway I say bring on emulations like the FS1R and SY99. Or spend time creating something completely new but I'd say we've got enough analog emulations to last several lifetimes.... :shrug:
Same sentiment here. I live for the era of late 80's through 90's synths. I can kind of see why they aren't bigger in the music soft space, since at the time softsynths and DAWs were becoming their own thing this hardware was new (and thus unexciting compared to analogs of yore), but now I would love an SY in my studio.

Synths with DCOs, like FBM's recently 7999, and oldschool digital synths like the Trinity, Wavestation and M1 are my jam. Same with Nils' K1v. I'd love to have more like them.

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