Hardware Analogs with Sine waves?
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3466 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest
Why are sine waves so rare in hardware analogs?
I could in some way understand it 30-40 years back. I can understand why engineers decided on triangles instead (which if my memory serves me right is an altered square wave) back in the day. But today?
Does anyone know of any hardware analogs with real sine waves?
/Carl
I could in some way understand it 30-40 years back. I can understand why engineers decided on triangles instead (which if my memory serves me right is an altered square wave) back in the day. But today?
Does anyone know of any hardware analogs with real sine waves?
/Carl
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- KVRAF
- 35410 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
Good question. Maybe because there isn't analog hardware which doesn't incorporate saturation in the signal path, basically rendering sine waves unclean. Or they think that, with self oscillating filters, it's easy to produce sine waves anyway.
Or maybe I'm wrong with both theories.
Or maybe I'm wrong with both theories.
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- KVRAF
- 2564 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
It's because most analogue oscillators use charging/discharging capacitors to create a triangle or saw "core". This mechanism is easy to hard-sync by shorting to ground, and saw/tri/square/pulse waveforms are derived fairly easily. (PWM is achieved by changing the reference voltage of a comparator on a saw wave.)
Deriving a sine wave from saw/tri is more difficult; it requires a carefully designed and calibrated waveshaper and still the result will be approximate with some harmonic content.
It is possible to get very pure sine waves from a self-oscillating VCF, but this would be an independent "core" - quite difficult to extract saw/tri waves from, and not very responsive to sync.
Deriving a sine wave from saw/tri is more difficult; it requires a carefully designed and calibrated waveshaper and still the result will be approximate with some harmonic content.
It is possible to get very pure sine waves from a self-oscillating VCF, but this would be an independent "core" - quite difficult to extract saw/tri waves from, and not very responsive to sync.
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3466 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest
imrae Yeah the problem with self-oscillating filters is that they are so damn tricky to tune over the keyboard - and of course you cannot layer it with another waveform.
chk071 - yeah! But that saturation might sound bloody gorgeous
Does anyone know of any hardware analogs that use sine waves? The only ones I find are based on digital oscillators. Just curious if anyone succeeded with something like this.
chk071 - yeah! But that saturation might sound bloody gorgeous
Does anyone know of any hardware analogs that use sine waves? The only ones I find are based on digital oscillators. Just curious if anyone succeeded with something like this.
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- KVRAF
- 15263 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
The classic analog synthlayout is Osc - Filter - Amp.
When using sine as oscillator waveform, there is nothing to filter. It has no harmonics. People might complain the filter works as amp instead.
When using sine as oscillator waveform, there is nothing to filter. It has no harmonics. People might complain the filter works as amp instead.
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- KVRAF
- 2564 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
A classic synth with saw-to-sine shaping is the ARP2600. Amusingly in this SOS review, the writer complains that the Arturia emulation has a worse sine wave than a real 2600: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/arturia-2600v
I suspect they modelled one that wasn't quite trimmed optimally. (Or maybe there is no trimmer and it's at the mercy of tolerances? I've never had one to check...)
I suspect they modelled one that wasn't quite trimmed optimally. (Or maybe there is no trimmer and it's at the mercy of tolerances? I've never had one to check...)
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3466 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest
But only if the synth has one oscillator and one waveform.
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- KVRAF
- 7342 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO
VCO2 on the Minibrute 2 has a sine option. It's not very clean though compared to making the filter resonate.
The primary oscillator on the Buchla 208 can crossfade from sine to a triangle, square or narrow pulse. Sines are more important to "West Coast" synthesis where you're likely to be running it through a wavefolder.
Lots of analog Eurorack oscillators offer sines, not all of them though.
The primary oscillator on the Buchla 208 can crossfade from sine to a triangle, square or narrow pulse. Sines are more important to "West Coast" synthesis where you're likely to be running it through a wavefolder.
Lots of analog Eurorack oscillators offer sines, not all of them though.
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3466 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest
I have totally forgot about the MB2. Yes - I remember now. The sine was quite decent actually. I mean, it felt like a sine and not a filtered triangle.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3466 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest
That's really interesting... was actually checking out the Polybrute - but no sines on that one.
/C
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- KVRAF
- 6419 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
The new "Prophet" Take 5 has sine
https://www.sequential.com/product/take ... oly-synth/
Very affordable as well, and has same modulation features as REV2.
Very interesting synth and alternative to getting Prophet 5 I must say. Effects are stereo as well.
https://www.sequential.com/product/take ... oly-synth/
Very affordable as well, and has same modulation features as REV2.
Very interesting synth and alternative to getting Prophet 5 I must say. Effects are stereo as well.
- KVRAF
- 10239 posts since 7 Sep, 2006 from Roseville, CA
Funny, I was pondering this same question recently. It seems that I recall more synths having sine wave oscs's back in the 80s, but I've looked back at some of them and, nope. The closest I've seen in most synths is from filter self-oscillation.
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- KVRAF
- 3847 posts since 13 Jun, 2014
Only problem with the Take 5 (as far as I'm aware) or not a problem for some is that the synth goes into a digital signal path at the end. So yeah, analog until effects.
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