One Synth Challenge #152: WhispAir by Full Bucket Music (Aiynzahev Wins!)

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
Post Reply New Topic
RELATED
PRODUCTS
WhispAir

Post

hockinsk3 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:18 am Wavetables are allowed, but should not be used as [imported] sample playback engine i.e. to replicate recorded instruments or vocal phrases directly, but rather to synthesise, morph and mangle single cycle waveforms.
What is a "single cycle waveform"? In WhispAir there is a transition table from sin to tri. What is a single cycle? Only sin? Only tri? Only one frame between? Are you suggesting not to use shape knob? Use a wavetable synthesizer as a subtractive with a large number of waveforms? Or I misunderstood? In my opinion, this would kill the whole point of wavetable synth. :shrug:

Post

Definition: A wavetable is a collection of 1-n single cycle waveforms. n is the maximum number a synth can manage. I call each of them a "slot". Others call them frame.

A single cycle is a collection of samples of a given length depending on the synth , i.e 640 samples (AKWF original) up to 2048 samples (Tone2 Icarus, etc), or even Vital where you can set the size in samples of the slots of a wt.
Samples can be a.) in time-amplitude domain like Wispair or in b.) frequency domain, for instance thorns wt and thorns spectral filter.

A wavetable file representation can vary from synth specific formats to the most common format: all slots are packed into a single wave file, i.e. slot 1 takes samples 1-2048 then slot 2 from 2049 to ...

The "position" parameter denotes the current playback position in the wavetable, i.e. the slot that the synth uses to playback.

Single cycle playback means to play just a single cycle of a given WT over and over again, without modulating the "position" parameter while playing back a note.

So if your WT consists of the following slots with a single cycle each: sine, triangle, square and your position parameter is 2, you'll hear a triangle, if it's 3 you hear a square in the example.

Scanning through a WT is the process of modulating the position while you playback a sound.
If you modulate the position to go from 1 to 3 then you hear first a sine, second a triangle, third a square. If modulation speed is really fast then you might nit be able to perceive the pure single cycles anymore.

Scanning can be continuous or stepwise, consider your position is not 1 or 2 but 1.4. Then you are inbetween "pure" slots.
In stepwise scanning you still hear the pure sine.
In continuous scanning you hear a blended waveform sine and triangle.

All "traditional" synths with "traditional" waveforms can be considered WT synths with n=1 and position fixed to 1.
Last edited by ] Peter:H [ on Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post

] Peter:H [ wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:38 am Definition: A wavetable is a collection of 1-n single cycle waveforms. n is the maximum number a synth can manage. I call each of them a "slot". Others call them frame.

A single cycle is a collection of samples of arbitrary length, i.e 640 samples (AKWF original) up to 2048 samples (Tone2 Icarus, etc).
Samples can be a.) in time-amplitude domain like Wispair or in b.) frequency domain, for instance thorns wt and thorns spectral filter.

A wavetable file representation can vary from synth specific formats to the most common format: all slots are packed into a single wave file, i.e. slot 1 takes samples 1-2048 then slot 2 from 2049 to ...

The "position" parameter denotes the current playback position in the wavetable, i.e. the slot that the synth uses to playback.

Single cycle playback means to play just a single cycle of a given WT, without modulating the "position" parameter while playing back a note.

So if your WT consists of the following slots with a single cycle each: sine, triangle, square and your position parameter is 2, you'll hear a triangle, if it's 3 you hear a square in the example.

Scanning through a WT is the process of modulating the position while you playback a sound.
If you modulate the position to go from 1 to 3 then you hear first a sine, second a triangle, third a square.

Scanning can be continuous or stepwise, consider your position is not 1 or 2 but 1.4. Then you are inbetween "pure" slots.
In stepwise scanning you still hear the pure sine.
In continuous scanning you hear a blended waveform sine and triangle.

All "traditional" synths with "traditional" waveforms can be considered WT synths with n=1 and position fixed to 1.
Thank you, PeterH! :hail: No matter how much I read about it, the terminology is still confusing, given synonyms and automatic translation. So, to put it in your terms, in the previous post I asked: do OSCers want to ban "Scanning through a WT" at all - as you said, this would turn wavetable synth into "traditional" synths with "traditional" waveforms with n=1 and position fixed to 1. Or can we do "scanning through a WT" but not through the entire table, or not at normal speed? Or can we do "scanning through a WT" only when wavetable is not a resynthesis of real instruments? Or can we do "Scanning through a WT" with resynthesis tables, but ONLY with included ones, and to imported wavetables applies one of the previous rules?

Probably, most of the OSC rules were invented a long time ago - back in the days when wavetable synthesizers was not so common and advanced. Perhaps now it is already necessary to develop new paragraphs of the rules specifically for this category.

P.S. I think the time is not far off when OSC will face free resynthesis synthesizers, high-quality PCM, maybe linear-arithmetic will return, which the community will not be able to ignore. The rules must evolve so as not to become obsolete! :-D

Post

do OSCers want to ban "Scanning through a WT" at all - as you said, this would turn wavetable synth into "traditional" synths with "traditional" waveforms with n=1 and position fixed to 1. Or can we do "scanning through a WT" but not through the entire table, or not at normal speed? Or can we do "scanning through a WT" only when wavetable is not a resynthesis of real instruments? Or can we do "Scanning through a WT" with resynthesis tables, but ONLY with included ones, and to imported wavetables applies one of the previous rules?
I think it's more subjective than any of this: you can always scan through wavetables, whether user-made, included, and so on. The only thing you can't do is use this function to directly imitate the source sound.

So, for example, you can't record yourself saying "I love WhispAir" and then use WhispAir to play back the sound "I love WhispAir." However, you can use it to make a choral pad that goes "sssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"

Post

RichardSemper wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:48 am
hockinsk3 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:18 am The big red wavetable rule on page 1 just needs the word 'imported' placed before sample playback for those of us who read more explicitly. I thought the rule was actually so we didn't end up with every track with Ladies & Gentleman as much as not wanting playback engine competition haha!

Wavetables are allowed, but should not be used as [imported] sample playback engine i.e. to replicate recorded instruments or vocal phrases directly, but rather to synthesise, morph and mangle single cycle waveforms.
I will try to get this amendment added as soon as possible :tu:
Tj Shredder wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:30 am We could agree to a general rule for any wavetable synth in the osc: Only factory wavetables are allowed. And if the synth has a wavetable editor, only drawn or calculated wavetables are allowed. Simply any import of wavetables could be banned. That would be an easy rule and not too much of a restriction either.
That would make it very easy to draw the line and also easy to verify…
This would certainly be clearer, but more restrictive. I would like to get more opinions on this from the folks here. Perhaps we could have a vote?
I'm all for importing custom wavetables, they only add to the fun. The current rules should be simple enough to adhere to and still leave plenty of options ( to drown in :wink: ) Having said that, if it causes too much discord, adoption of TJ's suggested general rule wouldn't bother me either. Still enough fun left. Certainly in the case of WhispAir, which is not only about wavetable scanning, but also a great FM/AM synth.

Post

Yes - why restrict imported wavetables unless they replicate another sound? And even then, as nineofkings says, I wouldn't be bothered about an imported sound that is so mangled that it's unrecognisable.

Post

Double Tap wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:45 pm Yes - why restrict imported wavetables unless they replicate another sound? And even then, as nineofkings says, I wouldn't be bothered about an imported sound that is so mangled that it's unrecognisable.
Define "replicate". Many of AKWF single cycles replicates a sound of a specific sampled synth. Just read the guide on his page. So would a collection of tb 3o3 shark teeths for instance be legal (afaik there's none available 4 free) or even samples of the modded out stuff with wild filters and distortion?
AK says, quote: A collection of basic waves but taken from various sources. When I started to sample one cycle waveforms I found that a saw waveform coming out of one machine isn’t like the saw waveform coming out of the next one…
So most of AKWF disqualifies for replicating other instruments, right?

Post

] Peter:H [ wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:12 pm
Double Tap wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:45 pm Yes - why restrict imported wavetables unless they replicate another sound? And even then, as nineofkings says, I wouldn't be bothered about an imported sound that is so mangled that it's unrecognisable.
Define "replicate". Many of AKWF single cycles replicates a sound of a specific sampled synth. Just read the guide on his page. So would a collection of tb 3o3 shark teeths for instance be legal (afaik there's none available 4 free) or even samples of the modded out stuff with wild filters and distortion?
AK says, quote: A collection of basic waves but taken from various sources. When I started to sample one cycle waveforms I found that a saw waveform coming out of one machine isn’t like the saw waveform coming out of the next one…
So most of AKWF disqualifies for replicating other instruments, right?
I guess you could try drawing it. Then fair game.

Post

I can't help but feel like all of this is missing the point.

The rule, to me, seems clearly to be about not using WhispAir as a plain ROMpler for acoustic sounds. As far as I can tell, it's not about the source of the waves, or how much you use the position knob, or whatever. It's just about the function that WhispAir is playing: are you using wavetables in the most narrow possible way to simply play back, 1:1, a sample of, like, a guitar? Or are you getting weird with it? Option 1 is against the rules regardless of sample source. Option 2 is within the rules regardless of sample source.

Applied to synths, we could say 303 waves used to make a 303 sound would be against the spirit of the rule, but using 303 waves to make a string pad wouldn't be.

Again, this is just how I read it, I didn't write the rule, but this seems clearly to be the intent from my POV.

Post

] Peter:H [ wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:12 pm
Double Tap wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:45 pm Yes - why restrict imported wavetables unless they replicate another sound? And even then, as nineofkings says, I wouldn't be bothered about an imported sound that is so mangled that it's unrecognisable.
Define "replicate". Many of AKWF single cycles replicates a sound of a specific sampled synth. Just read the guide on his page. So would a collection of tb 3o3 shark teeths for instance be legal (afaik there's none available 4 free) or even samples of the modded out stuff with wild filters and distortion?
AK says, quote: A collection of basic waves but taken from various sources. When I started to sample one cycle waveforms I found that a saw waveform coming out of one machine isn’t like the saw waveform coming out of the next one…
So most of AKWF disqualifies for replicating other instruments, right?
Replicate means copy. It's pretty simple. If I take an 909 crash cymbal wav, turn it into a wavetable, then play it back through WhispAir at a rate that makes it sound like a 909 crash cymbal, then I'm replicating the 909 crash. But if I play it back in a way that makes it sound completely different by using the synth's features, then it's not copying the sound.

The word challenge is pretty important in One Synth Challenge, for me personally. It's not One Synth Competition or One Synth Championship or One Synth Cup. The rules are there to help people focus on the point: to make sounds using the synth of the month. That's why the rules are pretty vague (I assume), because each synth is different, and there is so much about making music that is subjective and so many rules that you could make - how much saturation is too much? Can I use a cavernous reverb? When is a volume shaper doing something the synth can't? There are probably hundreds of rules that could be made - and they would suck all the joy out of it.

Most people could probably get away with using paid plugins, or samples, or transformative effects, but what's the point? Cheating at OSC would be like cheating at patience/solitaire or pretending your 5km personal best is five minutes shorter. Taking a 303 squelch and turning it into a wavetable, then playing back the wavetable so that you have a 303 squelch - why would anyone bother? Maybe someone who was desperate to win might, but it's not as though winning OSC gets you a record deal. I win OSC every month I enter it, whichever position I end up at, because when it comes to the end, I've made a track, dozens of people have listened to it, and some of them have told me what they think. That's worth far, far more to me than a VST or a sound bank, nice as they are.

So looking for loopholes in the rules seems utterly pointless to me, because there are probably as many loopholes as patches.

Post

Double Tap wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:35 pm I win OSC every month I enter it, whichever position I end up at, because when it comes to the end, I've made a track, dozens of people have listened to it, and some of them have told me what they think. That's worth far, far more to me than a VST or a sound bank, nice as they are.
I totally agree with you on this! Without any buts. My attitude is similar.
I'm trying to find the boundaries of what is allowed because I know that later I will use all the available synthesizer capabilities and I don't want to become a violator, first of all in terms of conscience. We all think differently. For example, for me, modern pop-electronic DAW-music is almost of no interest, I love live bands, live instruments, and every time I project it onto the synthesizer of the month. Someone is interested in the closest possible sound of 303 (it's just a saw or a pulse, right? I don't understand this...), I'm trying to simulate real instruments. Therefore, I need to see all the limitations as walls, so that by pressing close to these walls I can make such sounds that I would get high myself, otherwise I won't even be able to publish my track (as most often happens).

And I also often find my sounds by accident (so much so that I wouldn't be able to reproduce them twice) and I need to know what can't be used as a starting point. That's why I'm so meticulous this month - the synthesizer is too good, the excitement of discovery is great! :D So I'm sorry if I'm boring someone! :hug:

Post

Yadrichik_Chaya wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:46 pm ”Ladies and Gentlemen”

My entry for KVR's One-Synth-Challenge using Full Bucket Music's WhispAir.

43 instances of WhispAir in Cubase 11 DAW.

Effects: Cymatics Origin, Initial Reverse, Expanse 3D, Brauer Motion, Litbit, Replika, TR5 CSR Plate, BureauJuice, Quadravox, Raum, VST Bass Amp, TB Reelbus V4, Grand Finale, MaxxBass.
It's uncommon to see someone use these two plugins here at OSC: Initial Reverse and Quadravox. Depending on how they were used may be they are outside of what the rules allow. Maybe Litbit too (depending of light or heavy use of it).

Edit:

I think one of the risks of allowing the use of commercial plugins is that someone may think that the rules about use of fx plugins do not apply to them as well.

Post

Double Tap wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:35 pm
] Peter:H [ wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:12 pm
Double Tap wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:45 pm Yes - why restrict imported wavetables unless they replicate another sound? And even then, as nineofkings says, I wouldn't be bothered about an imported sound that is so mangled that it's unrecognisable.
Define "replicate". Many of AKWF single cycles replicates a sound of a specific sampled synth. Just read the guide on his page. So would a collection of tb 3o3 shark teeths for instance be legal (afaik there's none available 4 free) or even samples of the modded out stuff with wild filters and distortion?
AK says, quote: A collection of basic waves but taken from various sources. When I started to sample one cycle waveforms I found that a saw waveform coming out of one machine isn’t like the saw waveform coming out of the next one…
So most of AKWF disqualifies for replicating other instruments, right?
Replicate means copy. It's pretty simple. If I take an 909 crash cymbal wav, turn it into a wavetable, then play it back through WhispAir at a rate that makes it sound like a 909 crash cymbal, then I'm replicating the 909 crash. But if I play it back in a way that makes it sound completely different by using the synth's features, then it's not copying the sound.

The word challenge is pretty important in One Synth Challenge, for me personally. It's not One Synth Competition or One Synth Championship or One Synth Cup. The rules are there to help people focus on the point: to make sounds using the synth of the month. That's why the rules are pretty vague (I assume), because each synth is different, and there is so much about making music that is subjective and so many rules that you could make - how much saturation is too much? Can I use a cavernous reverb? When is a volume shaper doing something the synth can't? There are probably hundreds of rules that could be made - and they would suck all the joy out of it.

Most people could probably get away with using paid plugins, or samples, or transformative effects, but what's the point? Cheating at OSC would be like cheating at patience/solitaire or pretending your 5km personal best is five minutes shorter. Taking a 303 squelch and turning it into a wavetable, then playing back the wavetable so that you have a 303 squelch - why would anyone bother? Maybe someone who was desperate to win might, but it's not as though winning OSC gets you a record deal. I win OSC every month I enter it, whichever position I end up at, because when it comes to the end, I've made a track, dozens of people have listened to it, and some of them have told me what they think. That's worth far, far more to me than a VST or a sound bank, nice as they are.

So looking for loopholes in the rules seems utterly pointless to me, because there are probably as many loopholes as patches.
Reproducing is as well to load the waveform of a moog. You reproduce the basic character of the moog without articulations.

For me a VST synth is a piece of technology. I want to know what it's technically capable, that is part of the challenge for me. With doing so I learn about the synth, synthesize in general and how all works together. In the past I described every finding, so how zebralette learnt to speak, how thorn learnt it and even how it works for wts in common. I really read many articles about AM even for how it's applied in radio transmission. And all findings I have reported even way before end of the month. That you can push 1000 of points into any of TALs Msegs ... hm... I find this interesting, therefore I use it. That is how I deal with technology. If the One "Synth" Challenge is rather a Composition or Best DAW-Automation Challenge for anybody, yeah then this is valid too... as you said. I don't care, make it wiggle. What I do with EQs and automation is equally far from "the character of the synth" as using my precomputed AM points for TAL to be honest ... You can even modulate in audiorate the oscillator type of a synth from outside. Yeah, do it. If other participants write about their findings - cool, tried out many things myself. And that's the second and third thing - interesting sounds and learnings. I love sounds, I want to find new ones... and I love to learn by trying out stuff.
---
And finally the approach of dealing with samples is counter productive in my eyes. Because this way we never ever gonna do a single granular synth I'm affraid. And it's a little don quichotte battle in a age of wt synths. So why so desperately avoid it? Better deal with it by shaping it.

Rather than struggeling with samples, I suggest starting a curated OSC sample collection, a collection of like 20 samples/wts that are free to use as long as used through the synth. The use of a 1:1 replicated Crash will soon wear off, but still we can nerd with WT synths as they are supposed to be used... And I bet it's fun to curate these samples. I think I have suggested this many months ago already... when all this wt stuff started.
Think of this: Every month the winner suggest a new sample/wt to be added on top of the list, while the bottom sample gets evicted.
We can even start with an empty collection this way.

Post

] Peter:H [ wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 am For me a VST synth is a piece of technology. I want to know what it's technically capable, that is part of the challenge for me. With doing so I learn about the synth, synthesize in general and how all works together. In the past I described every finding, so how zebralette learnt to speak, how thorn learnt it and even how it works for wts in common. I really read many articles about AM even for how it's applied in radio transmission. And all findings I have reported even way before end of the month.
NP - what OSC is about.
] Peter:H [ wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 am That you can push 1000 of points into any of TALs Msegs ... hm... I find this interesting, therefore I use it. That is how I deal with technology.
- to play back samples! Why not put it to some more creative use? If you wanna play back samples straight just use a sample player or rompler - they are much better at the job! Sample playback is of course not allowed in OSC, for the obvious reasons I stated earlier.
] Peter:H [ wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 am If the One "Synth" Challenge is rather a Composition or Best DAW-Automation Challenge for anybody, yeah then this is valid too... as you said. I don't care, make it wiggle.
Baiting again!
] Peter:H [ wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 am What I do with EQs and automation is equally far from "the character of the synth" as using my precomputed AM points for TAL to be honest ... You can even modulate in audiorate the oscillator type of a synth from outside. Yeah, do it.
Most of this is clearly outside the spirit of the rules and the scope of the challenge. External modulation Fx is not allowed, audiorate modulation of any parameters by an outside source, whether by midi or daw automation ought not to be allowed either as the source of the sound is clearly not the synth in this case. External Fx generally should be minimal so as to retain the character of the synth.
] Peter:H [ wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 am If other participants write about their findings - cool, tried out many things myself. And that's the second and third thing - interesting sounds and learnings. I love sounds, I want to find new ones... and I love to learn by trying out stuff.
Great!
] Peter:H [ wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 am And finally the approach of dealing with samples is counter productive in my eyes. Because this way we never ever gonna do a single granular synth I'm affraid. And it's a little don quichotte battle in a age of wt synths. So why so desperately avoid it? Better deal with it by shaping it.
The current approach is to allow imported wavetables - just not to use the synth as a straight 'sample playback engine' This is about as open as it can be without compromising the integrity of the challenge.
] Peter:H [ wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 am Rather than struggeling with samples, I suggest starting a curated OSC sample collection, a collection of like 20 samples/wts that are free to use as long as used through the synth. The use of a 1:1 replicated Crash will soon wear off, but still we can nerd with WT synths as they are supposed to be used... And I bet it's fun to curate these samples. I think I have suggested this many months ago already... when all this wt stuff started.
Think of this: Every month the winner suggest a new sample/wt to be added on top of the list, while the bottom sample gets evicted.
We can even start with an empty collection this way.
This would be more restrictive than the current rule, not less. Quite a complicated suggestion given that all it achieves is to allow The use of straight 1:1 replicated sounds i.e. 'sample playback'

Post

IV! wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:58 pm
I totally agree with you on this! Without any buts. My attitude is similar.
I'm trying to find the boundaries of what is allowed because I know that later I will use all the available synthesizer capabilities and I don't want to become a violator, first of all in terms of conscience.
:tu: :tu: :tu:
nineofkings wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:30 pm I can't help but feel like all of this is missing the point.

[snip]
You said it much better than me. :tu: :tu: :tu:
] Peter:H [ wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 am Rather than struggeling with samples, I suggest starting a curated OSC sample collection, a collection of like 20 samples/wts that are free to use as long as used through the synth. The use of a 1:1 replicated Crash will soon wear off, but still we can nerd with WT synths as they are supposed to be used... And I bet it's fun to curate these samples. I think I have suggested this many months ago already... when all this wt stuff started.
Think of this: Every month the winner suggest a new sample/wt to be added on top of the list, while the bottom sample gets evicted.
We can even start with an empty collection this way.
Sure. A curated samples collection sounds like a good idea for a challenge, and the idea of evicting samples appeals to me, so - and I mean this sincerely rather than in any passive-aggressive way - why don't you start it up?

There's plenty of room for challenges, even just on KVR - we've got OSC, and the one in the Music Cafe and there's the Mix Challenge and Songwriting Challenge which sprang from here, then there's Metapop, Disquiet Junto - loads of things. So there's no reason why a 20 Sample Challenge couldn't happen too. You could probably even get Loopcloud or Splice to sponsor it. But using 1:1 samples creates a different sort of challenge to the one OSC gives.
RichardSemper wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:05 am Most of this is clearly outside the spirit of the rules and the scope of the challenge. External modulation Fx is not allowed, audiorate modulation of any parameters by an outside source, whether by midi or daw automation ought not to be allowed either as the source of the sound is clearly not the synth in this case. External Fx generally should be minimal so as to retain the character of the synth.
Exactly - those are the rules, that's the point, that's why it's a challenge, that's why it's rewarding - it forces me to think of other ways of doing things, and finding those new ways opens up new things to explore. I'm never going to use a synthesised crash cymbal outside OSC but the process of trying to make one shows me what other things I might be able to do, and why a crash cymbal sounds the way it does.

Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”