Goodbye, dear plugin! Those that won't make the Apple M1 transition

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
sQeetz
KVRian
702 posts since 8 Jan, 2005

Post Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:23 pm

AFAIK if the device is class compliant, it works no matter what without any drivers. That's at least my experience with two Focusrite audio devices I have. Works with the iPad as much as the Notebook without needing to install anything
MacBook Pro M1 . 16GB . 1TB . . Logic Pro……Renoise……Reason

Ploki
KVRAF
5241 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:50 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:58 pm
zerocrossing wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:09 pm
Ploki wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:43 am
@zerocrossing:
I can run my rme firewire ff800 that came out in 2004 on my M1.
What do you want to run on new macs, SCSI?
It’s not apple’s fault some manufacturer plan obsolescence after 3 years.
How are you connecting it? Is there some sort of converter?
Personally I’ve got an Other World Computing Thunderbolt 2 hub I plug my Fireface into, attached to the USBC TB3 M1 Air via a TB2 to TB3 converter.

RME are a great company, i recently purchased a Babyface FS and use that as a front end via ADAT to the FF800, which can store setting when not plugged into a computer making it a converter for it pres and line in/outs.

The firewire protocol is part of the TB3 and USBC specc.
i have a ff800 in my live ring, i've been thinking of buying another used one to use as a preamp/converter box for my UFX+ because it's cheap and good but something tripped me as a potential problem... latency? i think latency
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12748 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:16 pm

Chrisk-K wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:54 pm
Liquid cooled PCs are not silent. Pumps make noise and PSU fans make noise.
Believe it or not, my Acer 2-in-1 didn't have a PSU fan, and if it had a pump, it never made a peep in the year I had it. It ran totally silent.
chk071 wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:19 am
Well, one thing is for sure: Windows 11 is not supported on CPU's which are older than, like, 4 years ago, or mainboards which don't have TPM 2.0, or which can't be outfitted with a soft TPM.
...
If you have current hardware, then Windows 11 is compatible. If you run a below 8the gen Intel or AMD equivalent, you're out of luck.
Sorry but that's pure bullshit. I have it running just fine on my 2013 Surface Pro 2 with a 3rd Gen Core i5. I had assumed it wouldn't work, based on everything I'd read, but when I switched it on to update Win10, it offered to install Win11 for me so I let it. It runs perfectly well (except its awful and I hate it).
Scotty wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:46 am
The near complete noiseless operation with the kind of workstation workloads the new m1 processors are capable of pulling (optionally while under battery power) in both real and synthetic benchmarks on the minis and the laptops is class leading. Water-cooling 2 in 1 solutions are not needed.
Or maybe spending 4 grand on an M1 MB Pro is not needed if you have a liquid cooled PC 2-in-1 (which I paid about $650, brand new). It all depends on how you look at it. Personally, I don't give a shit, I have never understood why anyone gives a crap about fan noise, unless you are recording from a microphone (of course), in which case I just keep the computer out of the way of the mic. It was definitely an issue 15 yeas ago, when my desktop fans were really noise but in 2021, laptop fans are so quiet you mostly don't even notice when they are running.
No technological edge is permanent but to deny the efficiency and performance of this new platform as it stands today is obtuse. The Mac users have something to crow about.
Unless you care about bang for your buck, because you pay a hefty premium for a minor gain. The benchmarks I've seen don't make the new chips game-changers, although I am yet to see any that pit actual computers you can buy against one-another and those are the benchmarks that interest me.
Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:50 am
I don't get all the hate that Microsoft gets. The upgrade to Win11 is optional and free (inofficially even for Win7/8 users) . Win10 will still be supported for several years. So
noone is forced to upgrade or buy a new PC.
I've been burned too many times to not hate Microsoft, first with Zune, then with Windows Phone/Mobile and now with a measurably worse version of Windows. Everything they do seems to be one step forward, two steps back.
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jamcat
KVRian
1382 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:21 am

Even a minor gain is better than 2 steps backwards. That’s got to be worth something, right?
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

chk071
KVRAF
30688 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:30 am

BONES wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:16 pm
chk071 wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:19 am
Well, one thing is for sure: Windows 11 is not supported on CPU's which are older than, like, 4 years ago, or mainboards which don't have TPM 2.0, or which can't be outfitted with a soft TPM.
...
If you have current hardware, then Windows 11 is compatible. If you run a below 8the gen Intel or AMD equivalent, you're out of luck.
Sorry but that's pure bullshit. I have it running just fine on my 2013 Surface Pro 2 with a 3rd Gen Core i5. I had assumed it wouldn't work, based on everything I'd read, but when I switched it on to update Win10, it offered to install Win11 for me so I let it. It runs perfectly well (except its awful and I hate it).
Supported ≠ works. Microsoft already threatened to suspend Windows updates when you run Windows 11 on unsupported hardware.

That's the thing, isn't it? They don't even support their own older computers, like your Surface Pro 2. See here: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/sur ... ed09f9058e

The fact that it runs on every device which also ran Windows 10 makes it even more ridiculous. It does run. It's just that they say "No, we don't support this hardware.". To make people buy new computers.

See, I like Windows, but, the way Microsoft markets Windows 11 makes me say no no.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

rasmusklump
KVRian
1395 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Germany

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:00 am

who cares.....

chk071
KVRAF
30688 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:04 am

Your mother does.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

FapFilter
KVRian
929 posts since 29 Oct, 2015 from Jupiter 8

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:31 am

I personally don't see the problem either.
Noone is forcing you to upgrade to 11.
10 will continue to work just fine and will stay fully supported until 2025. most people will get a new system until then anyway.
And if you don't require constant system updates, even earlier versions are still great too, like 7 is for me for instance.

Of course there's nothing wrong if you upgrade to 11, i just don't see how people are actually negatively affected by not being able to upgrade if they happen to use unsupported hardware at all
In an ideal world, Win 11 would still run on everything, but the loss - until you eventually are getting supported hardware anyway at some point in the future - is pretty much none existent in my book
There's no Logic to Windows

Ploki
KVRAF
5241 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:38 am

BONES wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:16 pm
blablablbal
last time you posted an "amazing" intel based laptop for banging 1600$, i posted two benchmarks, that intel and ~40% better M1 Air for 999$

the only chip better than the M1 Max/Pro is the intel 12xxxHK which will probably double as a convection oven :lol: (drawing as much as M1 Max SoC without even considering the GPU).

and given with experience with intel, that turbo boost single core performance won't last anyway - while M1 never drops below 3.2GHz single core speed
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Markus Krause
KVRian
1152 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:03 am

The fact that it runs on every device which also ran Windows 10 makes it even more ridiculous. It does run. It's just that they say "No, we don't support this hardware.". To make people buy new computers.
The truth is a little more complex:

1) Performace:
Microsoft got valid reasons to drop support for old CPUs. Those do not support certain instruction sets like 64bit (4GB RAM limit), SSE4, AVX etc. These instruction sets can drastically boost certain calculations like FFT or security encryption stuff. If they supported those old CPUs everything would have to be programmed and tested twice or the fast CPUs would be running slowed down as they couldn't make use of the new instruction sets.

2) Fragmentation:
There exists a huge number of possible hardware combinations on PC. Keeping compatibility for old hardware means additional effort/costs for development and testing.

3) Stability:
Same reasons as 2

4) OEM sales:
With Windows 11 many people are triggered to buy a new PC. This means additional income for Microsoft through OEM versions sold through PC manufacturers.

5) Data mining:
Just like any other big company (Google/Apple/Facebook, etc) Microsoft is collecting data from the users. Data means cash. You can switch off this datamining rather easily. But it's opt-out.

6) Microsoft store:
They want do earn money with selling 3rd party software products
through the Microsoft store. The conditions and fees for developers are more fair than with google/Apple.

Nice:
The VST plugins and the software that I programmed 20(!) years ago still run fine on my Windows11 system without the need of patches, fixes or hacks. Microsoft has proven that they pay big effort on keeping everything compatible.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

Ploki
KVRAF
5241 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:17 am

Markus Krause wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:03 am
Nice:
The VST plugins and the software that I programmed 20(!) years ago still run fine on my Windows11 system without the need of patches, fixes or hacks. Microsoft has proven that they pay big effort on keeping everything compatible.
20 years ago was still macOS classic so i doubt i could run anything from that era, but there's a handful of 64-bit plugins coded before ARM was even a rumour (2010-2014) that still run fine on Monterey ARM - some (Drumspillage 2) are more stable than some native plugs :clown:
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chk071
KVRAF
30688 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:47 am

Markus Krause wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:03 am
2) Fragmentation:
There exists a huge number of possible hardware combinations on PC. Keeping compatibility for old hardware means additional effort/costs for development and testing.
Microsoft is not Apple. At least not yet. They're on a good way though. :?

Regarding dropping old CPU support: My 2013 Intel Xeon supports anything you mentioned. There's absolutely zero reason to drop support for it, also according to what you wrote. Why do they drop support for such CPU's then? Again, so that OEM's can sell computers. There is no other explanation really.

Anyway, let's talk again when you feel the implications of your unsupported computer. I'm sure you will have changed your mind by then. As I mentioned, Microsoft reserved to keep back future updates, and other stuff.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12748 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:17 pm

Ploki wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:38 am
last time you posted an "amazing" intel based laptop for banging 1600$, i posted two benchmarks, that intel and ~40% better M1 Air for 999$
No, you didn't, you posted benchmarks that just said "Apple M1" and "Intel XXXX". There was nothing about the computers they were tested with, making them a complete waste of time. OTOH, I posted samples, with links to the full articles, that showed that in the real world, with real laptops, that there was not a single benchmark where the M1 outperformed everything else and only one where it came close. Like these -
Screenshot 2021-12-01 121244.png
Screenshot 2021-12-01 121128.png
Screenshot 2021-12-01 121023.png
AMD Ryzen is in RED, Intel in BLUE and the M1 in BLACK.

And, for transparency's sake, here is the link to the FULL ARTICLE again, just so everyone can be certain you have no credibility at all on this subject.
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Ploki
KVRAF
5241 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:27 pm

BONES wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:17 pm
blablablabla
Edit: no
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12748 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:46 pm

Again, these aren't specific, they are an average of user-conducted tests. They don't tell you if the specific computer you want to buy is going to be any good or not. And it's just one benchmark. The article I linked to has half-a-dozen different benchmarks, which gives you a much better idea of how your specific system will perform, not just how the CPU might perform in one specific situation. You can tell, for example, how a better graphics card might improve your performance or how more RAM might speed things up. It gives you useful data, not just a bunch of averages collected from who knows where.

But let's run with the site you've used, here are the figures for specific Ryzen 5900 systems from the same source -
Screenshot 2021-12-01 124436.png

Note that these are also specific systems you can buy, not just numbers plucked out of the aether, and the best of them is getting on towards being twice as powerful as your precious M1. Here's the page for a full reference - https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/se ... Ryzen+5900
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