Can you hear the clicks?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3978 posts since 20 Feb, 2004
Hey all,
I'm noticing high-pitched clicks in the attack portion of a Synth Bass patch for a certain (unnamed) synthesizer. Both the amp and filter envelopes are set at 2 ms. I can hear the clicks on many of the notes, although not all.
Please listen to this file and tell me whether you can hear the clicks, and whether you think it indicates something is wrong with the synthesizer or patch, or whether this is expected behavior.
(In my experience, I think it's possible/expected for a synth patch to have a fast-ish attack without having a click like this.)
https://soundcloud.com/user-748763066/c ... 8aa5f47194
I'm noticing high-pitched clicks in the attack portion of a Synth Bass patch for a certain (unnamed) synthesizer. Both the amp and filter envelopes are set at 2 ms. I can hear the clicks on many of the notes, although not all.
Please listen to this file and tell me whether you can hear the clicks, and whether you think it indicates something is wrong with the synthesizer or patch, or whether this is expected behavior.
(In my experience, I think it's possible/expected for a synth patch to have a fast-ish attack without having a click like this.)
https://soundcloud.com/user-748763066/c ... 8aa5f47194
A well-behaved signature.
- KVRAF
- 15252 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
With extremely short attack times clicks are to be expected.
Some synth envelopes just are clicky where others are not. The strategy to avoid it me thinks is to tell a lie in the GUI: value zero is not really 0 ms attack time. Also a bit of a curve can help, just as syncing oscillator phase as opposed to having free running oscillators.
You may reveal the name of your suspect for others to confirm.
Some synth envelopes just are clicky where others are not. The strategy to avoid it me thinks is to tell a lie in the GUI: value zero is not really 0 ms attack time. Also a bit of a curve can help, just as syncing oscillator phase as opposed to having free running oscillators.
You may reveal the name of your suspect for others to confirm.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRAF
- 3089 posts since 4 May, 2012
Maybe try increasing the sample rate of your system and see if that improves things.
At 44.1kHz, 2m = 88 samples (rounded down)
At 192kHz, 2m = 384 samples
At 44.1kHz, 2m = 88 samples (rounded down)
At 192kHz, 2m = 384 samples
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3978 posts since 20 Feb, 2004
That seems like a reasonable thing to try, I'll give it a shot here...Unaspected wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:30 pm Maybe try increasing the sample rate of your system and see if that improves things.
At 44.1kHz, 2m = 88 samples (rounded down)
At 192kHz, 2m = 384 samples
A well-behaved signature.
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- KVRAF
- 3089 posts since 4 May, 2012
Of course, it will only improve things if the envelopes operate at audio rate or if control rate is in some way tied to sample rate in that synth.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3978 posts since 20 Feb, 2004
Of course, that was my hope as well.Unaspected wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:00 pm Of course, it will only improve things if the envelopes operate at audio rate or if control rate is in some way tied to sample rate in that synth.
Unfortunately, my shitty soundcard only goes up to 96k. Going from 44.1 to 96 didn't seem to improve things, so... I dunno.
A well-behaved signature.
- KVRAF
- 15252 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
Here's a screenshot of a part of the audio you shared, zoomed in ofcourse:
I highlighted a section being 2ms long there, being your attack time. You can also see that the oscillator is free-running.
The very sharp bends at the start of the note and end of the attack are discontinuities, and you hear those as clicks. Some notes start close to a zero-crossing of the oscillator, then there is hardly any click.
The attack envelope is implemented quite naive and thus expected to click. Simple design fault if you ask me
I highlighted a section being 2ms long there, being your attack time. You can also see that the oscillator is free-running.
The very sharp bends at the start of the note and end of the attack are discontinuities, and you hear those as clicks. Some notes start close to a zero-crossing of the oscillator, then there is hardly any click.
The attack envelope is implemented quite naive and thus expected to click. Simple design fault if you ask me
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We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3978 posts since 20 Feb, 2004
Thanks for the analysis. I agree with your conclusions. How unfortunate that the developer decided to code things this way.BertKoor wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:47 am Here's a screenshot of a part of the audio you shared, zoomed in ofcourse:
Screen Shot 2021-12-07 at 09.48.59.png
I highlighted a section being 2ms long there, being your attack time. You can also see that the oscillator is free-running.
The very sharp bends at the start of the note and end of the attack are discontinuities, and you hear those as clicks. Some notes start close to a zero-crossing of the oscillator, then there is hardly any click.
The attack envelope is implemented quite naive and thus expected to click. Simple design fault if you ask me
A well-behaved signature.
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- KVRAF
- 3089 posts since 4 May, 2012
That is unfortunate. It's not caused by an extensive release time? If the envelop doesn't always restart at zero and has no option to switch behaviour, surely it should settle back to zero eventually?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3978 posts since 20 Feb, 2004
It's not related to release time (just checked).Unaspected wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:27 pm That is unfortunate. It's not caused by an extensive release time? If the envelop doesn't always restart at zero and has no option to switch behaviour, surely it should settle back to zero eventually?
A well-behaved signature.
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- KVRAF
- 3089 posts since 4 May, 2012
Last resort would be using envelopes provided by your DAW. Just leave your oscillators running and attach an envelope controller to an appropriate gain parameter in the synth.JerGoertz wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:03 pmIt's not related to release time (just checked).Unaspected wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:27 pm That is unfortunate. It's not caused by an extensive release time? If the envelop doesn't always restart at zero and has no option to switch behaviour, surely it should settle back to zero eventually?
- KVRAF
- 15252 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
Another solution is to put a separate EQ plugin after it set to low-pass.
Or shop for another synth with non-clicking envelopes. This seems a very basic sound that almost all synths can produce.
Or shop for another synth with non-clicking envelopes. This seems a very basic sound that almost all synths can produce.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3978 posts since 20 Feb, 2004
All good suggestions, I'll see what I can do here. I might just send up editing the waveforms to remove the clicks after rendering as the first step before mixing.
A well-behaved signature.
- KVRAF
- 4590 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
There are some tiny clicks - at random, which comes from random oscillator phase.
I don't think this will be a significant issue in a full mix, but if you start a track with this bassline alone it will sound wrong.
I don't think this will be a significant issue in a full mix, but if you start a track with this bassline alone it will sound wrong.
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