Tracking Apple Silicon Native Hosts, Plugins, Effects

[jamcat]

can confirm Exponential Audio verbs don't work on M1 Monterey. the VST versions anyway.

It's quite unfortunate how iZotope has abused Michael Carnes and his products since acquiring EA. I've sadly had to remove Phoenixverb and R2 from my projects. And strike iZotope from the shrinking list of developers I will purchase from.

[sqigls]

I haven't tried to install any iZotope plugins yet, i'm assuming it will be a negatory also?
The EA verb installers sported the iZotope logo, i'll see if i can install an older non-iZotope EA verb...

[dayjob]

has any dev ever said anything good about VST3? all i've ever heard from devs is "why this steinberg? why!?"

Devs who are unwilling or unable to properly code VST3 plugins will be replaced by newer, better developers who can code properly. That's how progress works.

Every time I see a dev complain about doing their job, I cringe. I also make a note to avoid their products. A few developers who post on KVR have taken themselves out of the running for my money.

that's not what i'm talking about though.. "good devs".. "bad devs" is not the issue. they'll all make their stuff happy to run in VST3.. that's not the issue.

if the idea was to build a better mousetrap.. VST3 isn't that.. which is what i've heard said in more ways than one over the years.

so, i was wondering aloud.. from a devs perspective is there anything better about vst3 over vst2?

edit: anyway this is way off topic for this thread so ignore. no need to derail this thread.

[jamcat]

There are a handful of very vocal whiners. But the majority of developers provided VST3 versions years ago without any complaints. They just did it and didn't complain, because they are professionals.

I couldn't even imagine seeing lead developers from Arturia, Waves, IK Multimedia, or Eventide coming onto KVR to whine about how it's too hard to support VST3 or MacOS/Apple Silicon. That would destroy confidence in those developers as professional brands capable of delivering professional products.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

has any dev ever said anything good about VST3? all i've ever heard from devs is "why this steinberg? why!?"

Devs who are unwilling or unable to properly code VST3 plugins will be replaced by newer, better developers who can code properly. That's how progress works.

Every time I see a dev complain about doing their job, I cringe. I also make a note to avoid their products. A few developers who post on KVR have taken themselves out of the running for my money.

Who are you to assume that you know more about it than the people who actualy code plugins for a living? Even devs with lots of working VST3 plugins say the format has major issues that Steiny has ignored for years and is a pain in the ass to support. For the most part, they're not saying they can't do VST3 (sure, some refuse), they're saying there are major problems with spec, the documentation, assumptions Steinberg made (MIDI is going away - uh no). Then you've got end-users who are running into instability as a result of flaws that crop up. And yet there are still folks who swear it's better because they're either regurgitating what Steiny says, or they see that VST3 is 1 more than VST2 and have it ingrained in their heads it must be an improvement. After all, Steiny says it has sample accurate automation and suspends processing on silence and makes it easier to sidechain. Ignore the fact that sample accurate automation isn't widely implemented if at all, suspend processing can be done in VST2 and is, and the sidechaining in Cubase issues are an artificial limitation that no non-Steinberg has.

It's not an upgrade to VST2, VST3 is its own thing. If you prefer that format because you use Cubase and it makes sidechaining easier, cool! It's your right to use whatever DAW you like and buy whatever plugins you like. But developers are saying it's not a real upgrade over VST2 in any meaningful way, and I'm going to trust folks like Urs and other developers who do this for a living that it's not a great format and has problems. Not the randos on KVR that don't code plugins for a living but act like they know everything about it. Trust the experts.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

There are a handful of very vocal whiners.

Pot, meet kettle.

[jamcat]

assumptions Steinberg made (MIDI is going away - uh no). Then you've got end-users who are running into instability as a result of flaws that crop up. And yet there are still folks who swear it's better because they're either regurgitating what Steiny says

Now you're just regurgitating the misinformation about VST3 from the usual complainers.

sample accurate automation isn't widely implemented if at all

According to the complainers who can't code VST3 plugins properly, you mean. Perhaps it's just them..?

Most developers are doing just fine and have been for years. And I wouldn't really consider a developer who's actively trying to push their own competing plugin format to be a reliable narrator when it comes to VST3.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

And I wouldn't really consider a developer who's actively trying to push their own competing plugin format to be a reliable narrator when it comes to VST3.

Steinberg is the developer that's changing licensing rules and trying to abuse their marketshare to push their own format because they're trying to profit off it. The CLAP format is open source and free. So if you're trying to figure out who to trust, I'd be skeptical of the huge corporation that's trying to make money pushing their own format over the small companies that are creating a free, open source standard. But that's just me.

[jamcat]

Steinberg gave developers a decade long heads up before removing the VST2 subset. Most developers released fully functional VST3 plugins with no issues many years ago.

Steinberg charges no money to develop for VST3. You're just regurgitating more disinformation from the whine brigade.

[cadiz]

can confirm Exponential Audio verbs don't work on M1 Monterey. the VST versions anyway.

They were acquired by izotope and izotope never bothered to provide Big Sur/Monterey compatibility and will not provide M1 support, so these products are “dead”

https://support.izotope.com/hc/en-us/ar ... le-silicon

[teilo]

** EDIT ** Seems the downloads are not yet available to download on their webpage, d16 have uploaded the changelog but not the downloads yet.

Even the Changelogs are gone now. I'm going to wait on this.

[machinesworking]

There are a handful of very vocal whiners. But the majority of developers provided VST3 versions years ago without any complaints. They just did it and didn't complain, because they are professionals.

I couldn't even imagine seeing lead developers from Arturia, Waves, IK Multimedia, or Eventide coming onto KVR to whine about how it's too hard to support VST3 or MacOS/Apple Silicon. That would destroy confidence in those developers as professional brands capable of delivering professional products.

This is so wrong on many many levels. Compare VST3 adoption to the relatively speaking far less universal Mac only AU format, and you see a world of difference. AU was common for more than 90% of the plug ins out there by five years time at most.

Urs Heckman in his own words started coding plug ins because of how solid the AU spec was. Almost in complete reverse has been his and pretty much the entire industries attitude towards VST3, it's a mess, period. Steinberg took a solid foundation in VST2 and screwed it right up. FXPansion the company who freaking coded the VST/AU Wrapper so we could use plug ins in Logic pretty much from the day AU started, flatly stated they were never coding VST3 plug ins. That's right, the company that helped port almost all VSTs to AU flatly stated that VST3 was garbage and they were never coding it.

I could go on for days about this, you're so wrong about the backlash to VST3 and what CLAP is. To this day VST3 is hit or miss in various DAWs on Mac OS, because each DAW has to backwards engineer the hosting, Steinberg make a DAW it turns out, so the hosting SDK is there but not... friendly.

This is why open an open plug in format should have been introduced back when AU came out, because having Avid, Apple, and Steinberg as the only caretakers of "open" plug in formats is almost guaranteed to have the outcome we have today, various major players only today more than ten years later adopting VST3 and not a soul happy about it. If this takes off like it should in ten years time, CLAP will be the dominant format, VST and AU will be host specific formats at best, like AAX.

I get not wanting to support lazy developers and I get not caring to listen to complaints etc. but let's be fair here, VST3 is a mess, there's times when it's not laziness that makes a developer hate a format.

[machinesworking]

Steinberg gave developers a decade long heads up before removing the VST2 subset. Most developers released fully functional VST3 plugins with no issues many years ago.

Steinberg charges no money to develop for VST3. You're just regurgitating more disinformation from the whine brigade.

Steinberg control the format, and magically develop a host that works best with that format, after a decade or so VST2 was solid in most DAWs across both platforms, but that got shook up by VST3. We're back to square one, with VST3 offering only pitiful advantages over VST2 at the cost of yet again DAWs having to backwards engineer bugs out of their system with the help of plug in developers...

There's no disinformation here, there's just a single developer controlling a format. I'm grateful they made it open, but it's definitely time to have a truly open format.

[sqigls]

Cubase 12 will be interesting.
I'm relieved that (apparently) the 'non-silicon' version will still host vst2.
now I have this M1 beast it's a shame though to not be just using a 100% native rig to squeeze the most power out of it.

I've spent 20 years rolling my eyes at Steinberg's exclusivity, i really hope they loosen the tie a little.
I've invested up till v12, and i'd like to think i could migrate to a new DAW, but i've tried a few times to various DAWs, and Cubase really is the best DAW i've used.

[kidslow]

I'm not normally one to complain about such things, but can y'all please take the VST3 wars to some other thread. It's WAY off topic at this point.