Why do you dislike Arturia VSTs?

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
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Why do you dislike Arturia VSTs?

Their VSTs are bloated, take long to load and consume a lot of RAM.
88
44%
Their VST re-creations of classic synths sound nothing like the originals.
33
17%
Their synth presets sound mostly sh*te / are nothing I could use.
19
10%
Some of their VSTs have a gamey UI.
19
10%
Their VSTs sometimes crash my DAW.
7
4%
All of the above.
14
7%
All of the above plus something not mentioned here (please comment).
18
9%
 
Total votes: 198

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Echoes in the Attic wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:06 pm Since an Arturia rep is here I would like to give my feedback:

I like the software center personally, I find it easy to check for update and install/uninstall. I especially appreciate that uninstalling demos removes NKS stuff too, which is really hard to do with most plugins.

I do find the load times a bit annoying and they do use a fair bit of ram. Seems like the UIs are a little heavy. Conversely when I open something like a TAL juno or jupiter, it is instant nd uses little resources.

In general, some of the UIs are good, like the Jup 8-V4, but often there is so much waster space for the sake of realism, and controls are often small and at a strange angle, like the organs. And often a simple view uses the same amount of space as an expanded view. The Prophet is the worst for this. Using just one engine still takes up tons of screen space that is empty. And the Synclavier as well. The DX7 on the other hand changes the window size depending on the view.
I think the same.
I’m not a fan of the « 2 side UI » with a great (if not ridiculous) looking realistic but not so usefull view and a somewhat flat (if not uninspiring) but full view. TAL has it better (but needs more shine)

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Synthack wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:57 am Those who are complaining about it taking too long to load etc are people who possibly have computers that are either old or just unmaintained.

For those of you who do have older computers, please upgrade and enjoy the newer stuff like the rest of us. If you have a 10 year old computer and expect it to work like it did when it's brand new stop. You can't do that with software, there are so many variables involved including the following.
While using newer and faster devices might help mitigate the detrimental Arturia loading time issues people have been discussing. That would simply mask those root issues by increasing the raw horsepower of the hardware to overcome and diminish their impact of the software. i.e. those underlying causes would still exist.

Case in point, your assertion presumes that users with older devices (than you would recommend) might also then experience similar negative load performances from say, other brand new plugins from other developers, but in my experience this is not true at all (with regard to the slow loading issues, Arturia are the exception and not the rule.)

All of my software is currently up-to-date and using the very latest versions (well over a hundred different plugins from various plugin developers, all of which observably load and operate lightning fast speeds and at peak efficiencies on the same device at which Arturia has been observed to underperform.

And so it is the performances of those other developers' plugins which are the barometer by which Arturia has been measured, using exactly the same device and under the same test conditions. Therefore, it is by direct performance comparison relative to its peers, by which Arturia has been determined of currently falling short of.

e.g. A car with a dodgy set of tyres may well perform much faster if you happen to increase its engine's raw horsepower. But that doesn't mean there isn't an underlying issue with the tyres that should still be addressed. Far better to actually remedy the root cause(s) of any issue, rather than attempt to cover them up by masking any detrimental effects thereof.

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Pasaje wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:24 pm Having said that, the 7-12 second delay on instancing/loading Arturia's VSTs has put me on hold from purchasing more of their software. At least in Bitwig, the loading delay gets serialized, meaning that if I have six instances of Pigments or Analog lab in a project it can take up to a minute for the project to load. Not cool.
Yep, exactly! so 'Bitwig' can also now be included in the list of DAWs which exhibit this exact same 'instantiation delay' phenomenon. A previous user in this thread had also reported experiencing the same behaviour within 'Reaper' for Arturia plugins. And I have first-hand observed the same 'instantiation lag' also within 'Studio One, FL Studio, Ableton Live, Cakewalk and Renoise'. So, it's probably safe to assume at this point, that this is almost certainly not a DAW-specific issue, but rather an Arturia-specific issue.

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I would be interested to know if those people experiencing the delay during instantiation are using HDDs or SSDs. Because loading a ton of files is much slower on an HDD where it doesn't make much of a difference on an SSD.

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I used the V Collection pretty extensively up until a few years ago. I dove out of the box (not Arturia hw), but concentrated on non-au instruments for a couple of years. Although I had been using Arturia stuff for about 10 years, what i disliked about Arturia... was some of the initial instruments were getting long in the tooth (hadnt been updated in a decade) and the tones I needed/used were flat. I picked up V Collection 8 on sale last year - most all of that has changed. The newer instruments and latest updates to the older instruments sit well with hardware gear I use, and the tones are fricken amazing.. and sound amazing stacked up with both ITB and OTB instruments and effects. So - this 'poll' could have done better with an option for 'I dont have any beefs with Arturia.. and enjoy their products'

On the feedback side (and glad to see Arturia participating). Yes - Jup-8V 4 is amazing now, however dropping the Splits/layers options, and along with those - compatibility of old patches with new instrument, and not providing a utility to do conversion of older patches to the new version... meant a lot of re-work for some of us. I understand how it could happen.. and wouldnt trade compatibility for the new sound engine / tones... But.. would like to see future major instrument updates, lean in to assure that existing patches are not stranded (or... provide a conversion utility).

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Held wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:13 pm I would be interested to know if those people experiencing the delay during instantiation are using HDDs or SSDs. Because loading a ton of files is much slower on an HDD where it doesn't make much of a difference on an SSD.
The delay is exhibited on devices using fast SSDs. It's not a HDD vs SSD situation, since we're directly comparing the relative load and instantiation times of Arturia vs other developers' plugins on the same device. i.e. If it was a drive issue, then the same delay issues would observed across all other developers plugins, however that is not the case.

As has been suggested, using very new or more powerful hardware may possibly help mitigate the delay issues to a degree. However, that would be only 'masking' the issue rather than directly addressing it, since similar detrimental load times are not being observed from other developers' plugins using the exact same hardware.

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Synthack wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:57 am Those who are complaining about it taking too long to load etc are people who possibly have computers that are either old or just unmaintained.

For those of you who do have older computers, please upgrade and enjoy the newer stuff like the rest of us. If you have a 10 year old computer and expect it to work like it did when it's brand new stop. You can't do that with software, there are so many variables involved including the following.

- Upgrading to a Newer OS (This sometimes can slow the hardware down, this is often seen with apple products)

- Not upgrading to a newer OS but still using the internet (This is not a good idea, just take my word for it)

- Installing a bunch of freeware, games and other software on your studio computer. Yes this can often cause problems such as introducing spyware, viruses and other crap to your computer. Some commercial programs such as other creative software will install a bunch of C/R stuff too that can eat up RAM or run background checks/services.

- Obvious but i'm still going to put it out there. Installing warez is just downright stupid. For the same reason above, but yes it will and often DOES come with "extras" such as crypto miners and so on.

- Not maintaining your computer such as blowing dust out every now and then or running tools that will help your OS stay running smooth.

I have absolutely NO problem loading arturias plugins on my M1 Apple computer. It loads fairly quick and works with no problems in a mix using multiple instances. (I own the V-collection 8 )

Some of the newer Arturia plugins DO use more resources because Arturia are using more advanced modelling compared to the older stuff. I also believe they probably don't use the same framework as before and updated it to take advantage of the newer computer power. I don't know this but i know lots of software developers do this to keep their stuff up to date.

Please everyone learn how to use a computer and maintain it.

Learn how technology evolves and how software development generally moves along to take advantage of the latest technologies.
Nice theory but not true at all.

I’m using an 8-core all SSD computer purchased a couple months ago brand new. It’s very fast and working great. Arturia plug-ins load slow. I can deal with, but comparing to other plugins, they are slower.

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MrJubbly wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:28 pm
Held wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:13 pm I would be interested to know if those people experiencing the delay during instantiation are using HDDs or SSDs. Because loading a ton of files is much slower on an HDD where it doesn't make much of a difference on an SSD.
The delay is exhibited on devices using fast SSDs. It's not a HDD vs SSD situation, since we're directly comparing the relative load and instantiation times of Arturia vs other developers' plugins on the same device. i.e. If it was a drive issue, then the same delay issues would observed across all other developers plugins, however that is not the case.

As has been suggested, using very new or more powerful hardware may possibly help mitigate the delay issues to a degree. However, that would be only 'masking' the issue rather than directly addressing it, since similar detrimental load times are not being observed from other developers' plugins using the exact same hardware.
Instead of making empty generalizations, I'd like you to specify exactly what are you talking about. I just tested instantiating Pigments, Falcon, Kontakt and HALion. All of them took pretty much the same time. Actually, I think HALion took a little longer and Falcon loaded a little faster. But NONE took more than around a second. Even OPS7, which has a dumbed down GUI, took pretty much the same time.

So, I'd like you to mention exactly what delays you are observing, what are you comparing with, and the specs of your machine.
Last edited by fmr on Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

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Echoes in the Attic wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:45 pm Nice theory but not true at all.

I’m using an 8-core all SSD computer purchased a couple months ago brand new. It’s very fast and working great. Arturia plug-ins load slow. I can deal with, but comparing to other plugins, they are slower.
Then you must have some problem in your system. My laptop cannot be compared in terms of powering to an 8-core machine (OK - it has six cores, but still), and Arturia plug-ins launch in pretty much the same time as other plug-ins, as I stated above. I also would like to know the exact specs of your machine.

Also, what exactly do you mean with "slow"? You realize "slow" means nothing? How much time? Slow compared with what?
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:46 pm Instead of making empty generalizations, I'd like you to specify exactly about what are you talking about. I just tested instantiating Pigments, Falcon, Kontakt and HALion. All of them took pretty much the same time. Actually, I think HALion took a little longer and Falcon loaded a little faster. But NONE took more than around a second. Even OPS7, which has a dumbed down GUI took pretty much the same time.
Well, good for you. However, clearly that is not the case for everybody else here. Yet, unlike yourself, I won't stoop to spuriously accuse your own singular report as an "empty generalisation". Even though, that is just what it appears to be to me, since what you describe bears no resemblance to my own first hand experience, or apparently many other users here who have provided their own examples posted and documented here.
fmr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:46 pm So, I'd like you to mention exactly what delays you are observing, what are you comparing with, and the specs of your machine.
Everything that needs to be said regarding this matter has already been detailed multiple times and well-documented in this very thread, which is readily available for you (or anyone else) to read back through. There's no point in flogging that dead horse and repeating those posts. Just use the forum search facilities instead and take the time to read them yourself.

But thanks to the many different users who have reported the exact same issues here. We can at least know now that it is not a DAW-specific issue, as people have reported the same symptoms across the board using many various DAWs.

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Ok FMR, let's do a controlled test! Post your results. Everyone else is encouraged to do the same. Only takes a few minutes. Maybe this warrants its own thread.

Controlled Test Procedure

Step 1. Fully RESTART your PC. Do NOT shut it down and turn it back on. Do NOT wake it up after having put it to sleep. Do a full restart (not shutdown) of your OS. This will prevent any prior loads of Arturia instruments from impacting load times. Wait a few seconds after restarting your PC for all the background tasks and services to launch.

Step 2. Launch your DAW to a completely empty project. Do not load any projects beforehand or during the test.

Step 3. Use the clock/stopwatch app on your phone, have it ready to go....

Step 4. Load an instance of Jup-8 V4 into your empty project and start the stopwatch at the same time.

Step 5. Only stop the stopwatch when the plugin GUI is fully visible.

Step 6. Make note of the "First Load" results.

Step 7. Load it again. Make note of the "Second Load" results.

Step 8. Load another Arturia V-Collection plugin. Let's say, DX7V. Make note of the "Second Arturia plugin Load" results.

Step 9. Post here. Include your OS, DAW, PC specs, and load results.

MY RESULTS

Here are mine:
Windows 10 x64, Reaper 6.46, AMD 3950x, ASROCK Creator X570 Mobo, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3600mhz, Radeon RX 5500 XT 4GB DDR6 graphics card, 1TB MX500 SATA 6Gb/s SSD. Seems like a plenty fast modern system and efficient DAW right?

First Load of Jup-8 V4: 36 seconds!!!
Second Load of Jup-8 V4: 8 seconds (more reasonable)
Second Arturia plugin load (DX7V): 16 seconds

Conclusions: the first time any Arturia plugin loads, it's doing some extra checks (probably with ASC or something). This results in a particularly brutal load time even on a fast PC. Note: this is why restarting your PC is important. If you never restart or just put it to sleep, you're likely not seeing the full slowness of first load.

The second load of the same plugin is generally not too bad. This is probably because the graphic resources are already loaded into memory. When you open a new Arturia plugin after the fact, it's faster than the brutally slow first load (probably because ASC doesn't need to be called), but it's still slow (likely because all the new graphics resources need to be loaded).
Last edited by Funkybot's Evil Twin on Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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fmr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:48 pm
Echoes in the Attic wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:45 pm Nice theory but not true at all.

I’m using an 8-core all SSD computer purchased a couple months ago brand new. It’s very fast and working great. Arturia plug-ins load slow. I can deal with, but comparing to other plugins, they are slower.
Then you must have some problem in your system. My laptop cannot be compared in terms of powering to an 8-core machine (OK - it has six cores, but still), and Arturia plug-ins launch in pretty much the same time as other plug-ins, as I stated above. I also would like to know the exact specs of your machine.

Also, what exactly do you mean with "slow"? You realize "slow" means nothing? How much time? Slow compared with what?
Yeah, of course. The problem 'must be' with his system, right? Because it surely couldn't possibly be anything else to blame ... like the 'actual software' exhibiting the issue itself. 'Cause that would be too easy and make too much common sense for you. :o

And so what if he (like myself) also has hundreds of other plugins, all of which modern and up-to-date versions which exhibit 'precisely zero' delay issues? Is that then still then a system issue? And exactly at what point, does somebody like yourself stop blaming everything else as a potential culprit apart from the actual product exhibiting the problem itself?

Jeeze! The mental gymnastics you must go through on a daily basis, just trying to comprehend any issue which you don't personally first-hand experience for yourself must be absolutely exhausting. You're like: "If it doesn't happen directly to me, then it doesn't compute!" Lol! :lol:

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Everyone please stop arguring about it or belittling others experiences or making assumptions about their PC. Run the test steps from my post two up from this one and post your results. Let the data do the talking.

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Held wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:13 pm I would be interested to know if those people experiencing the delay during instantiation are using HDDs or SSDs. Because loading a ton of files is much slower on an HDD where it doesn't make much of a difference on an SSD.
I have used all three: spinning disk, SSD, and (currently) M.2 NvME.

All of them are slow to load Arturia synths and effects. Some synths are worse than others. Pigments is one of the worst offenders, and should be the model for the discussion IMO. It's the deepest shame. I would use it a lot more if it didn't take 10 seconds to load a preset (in the DAW; I am not complaining about presets once it's loaded... but that's not how I work).

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fmr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:48 pm
Echoes in the Attic wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:45 pm Nice theory but not true at all.

I’m using an 8-core all SSD computer purchased a couple months ago brand new. It’s very fast and working great. Arturia plug-ins load slow. I can deal with, but comparing to other plugins, they are slower.
Then you must have some problem in your system. My laptop cannot be compared in terms of powering to an 8-core machine (OK - it has six cores, but still), and Arturia plug-ins launch in pretty much the same time as other plug-ins, as I stated above. I also would like to know the exact specs of your machine.

Also, what exactly do you mean with "slow"? You realize "slow" means nothing? How much time? Slow compared with what?
The problem is not in his system. The problem is, Arturia designed their plugins using bit maps (nothing that strange about that) but wanted them to look “realistic.” There are tricks you can do to achieve this, but they come at the expense of losing an illusion of true perspective. If you look at the “keys” on Arturia plugins, you can see that they’re all individual graphics, and they have to have a different one for each UI magnification. First off, I’m not even sure why anyone needs a graphic of a keyboard. Second, this is a profound waste of resources, and the “oh, computer memory is so cheap” argument is dumb. Just because a resource is cheap, it doesn’t mean you should not try and use it wisely.

There are two pretty easy fixes for this. First off, lose the ability to switch sizes on the fly. Chances are someone’s going to do this once and it’s a small matter to make them reload the plugin to see the change. Second, lose the true perspective. No one really cares if the keyboard looks perfectly natural.
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