One Synth Challenge #157: FB-7999 by Full Bucket Music (Taron Wins)

[cdbaksu]

I believe what you describe applies in every other discipline, and you can even make analogous statements about how there's a whole world of kite flying out there, not just the vast knowledge and immense engineering efforts it takes to make a 747 fly.

Right! If enough scientists had seriously studied kites throughout the entire existence of aviation, we could now have a completely different fleet of small-large aircraft, perhaps much safer, more comfortable and economical! It's just that someone once decided that it was convenient enough not to invent anything else. But I'm not sure that Boeing (and modern aircraft in general) this is the perfect solution, that Western music theory is the best for finding and perceiving music, that my toilet paper holder has already been perfected... there are just accepted standards, but for us, inquisitive minds, this is only an incentive to study something else!
For myself, I have now chosen the path to remain on the foothold of Western theory, bringing elements of other musical ecosystems into it as I study, my dream on this path is to find/creating a general theory of music that would link everything that can be called music into a single system.

I'm pretty sure modern avionics' evolution includes a pretty thorough study of kites, it would be a pretty big oversight otherwise

But yeah, it's not just about standards, it's about innovation and imagination. The things you've listed transformed into standards because they are the best ideas to have been realised. But also this does not mean creating a bubble, at least not for me. That would be a pretty myopic view on music on my part, rather, I enjoy chocolate more for knowing how it's made. And similarly get frustrated by other fields and endeavours I cannot enjoy (as much) because I know so little about.

edit: spelling.

[cdbaksu]

I believe what you describe applies in every other discipline, and you can even make analogous statements about how there's a whole world of kite flying out there, not just the vast knowledge and immense engineering efforts it takes to make a 747 fly.

So music theory is super advanced technology

Does this also mean that music theory experts have purer and more refined emotions/thoughts?

Surely a recluse who only meditates in silence in a forest or a cave has purer emotions/thoughts compared to someone who is rhythmically blowing/pressing/picking/bowing and beating on an instrument via a theory etc.

If you look at the video you see that those behind the Western Music Theory has very close ties to all those fascist psychopaths and their ”ideas”… Thought it be good if people knew this and would broaden their horizons to other types of music around the world that also sometimes happen to be more advanced than western music, but can the western music theory explain these styles of music?

Exactly right, super advanced technology it is! And not only does one who understands the inner workings of it experience, as you put it, purer and more refined emotions and thoughts; but also can control them, can innovate on them, can elevate them to even further heights.

I believe we're crossing wires somewhere at the intersection of knowledge and how to express value in understanding, and I'm not quite sure how we're going to untangle them.

edit: spelling.

[Yadrichik_Chaya]

I believe what you describe applies in every other discipline, and you can even make analogous statements about how there's a whole world of kite flying out there, not just the vast knowledge and immense engineering efforts it takes to make a 747 fly.

So music theory is super advanced technology

Does this also mean that music theory experts have purer and more refined emotions/thoughts?

Surely a recluse who only meditates in silence in a forest or a cave has purer emotions/thoughts compared to someone who is rhythmically blowing/pressing/picking/bowing and beating on an instrument via a theory etc.

If you look at the video you see that those behind the Western Music Theory has very close ties to all those fascist psychopaths and their ”ideas”… Thought it be good if people knew this and would broaden their horizons to other types of music around the world that also sometimes happen to be more advanced than western music, but can the western music theory explain these styles of music?

Exactly right, super advanced technology it is! And not only does one who understands the inner workings of it experience, as you put it, purer and more refined emotions and thoughts; but also can control them, can innovate on them, can elevate them to even further heights.

I believe we're crossing wires somewhere at the intersection of knowledge, and how to express value in understanding, and I'm not quite sure how we're going to untangle them.

But this refinement, control, innovation and elevation
clearly stays within the frame of Western Music Theory and nothing else.
So this theory is clearly not universal since it can't explain anything outside itself.
Yet it still somehow deems itself to be superior compared to others.
No wonder those guys are behind it!

[emikaela]

are you saying that hegemonic western music theory is the 747 and all the remaining music of all time and space is on the technical level of kite flying in this analogy? hopefully not, but it sort of looks that way...

theory is fun and useful, as long as you keep in mind that it's primarily concerned with was has been done before. not at all with what you ought to do, unless you want it to be. it's a framework for predicting the expectations of your listeners, but doesn't prescribe how you should handle those expectations.

[silverpants]

Deal with music that way and you will "sense" the maze, even where the map ends!

You've explained yourself well there Taron. I see what you mean. But I'm not sure I fully agree. I think if the composer is happy with their piece of music - but many other people are not - that does not make them "wrong". I don't think there is wrong or right in music - or any form of art. Some people produce very strange music that sounds right to them - and I applaud it. For music to evolve in the long term it must have mutations. I'm sure Mozart would have thought Meshuggah were "wrong" and might not have even recognised it as music. But some people today love Meshuggah. I personally get excited by "wrong" music. But I'm not saying a deep understanding of music theory is not productive to some people . Whatever allows the composer to achieve his/her vision is valid.

I think it probably doesn't help to have a just a basic understanding of Western music theory and sticking to it - since that could result in formulaic results. I do agree with you that a deep understanding of all music could open up many possibilities and open up the maze - as you say.

The fact that most of us at OSC agree that there are 12 notes in our musical tuning is fairly arbitrary and and accident of our history. Those 12 notes happen to hit near the important harmonics (1/2 1/3 2/3 1/4 etc) - but they don't exactly. We could have chosen 5, 19, or 31 intervals. There are other systems that work too - as Yaddrick is pointing out from around the world. I expect music with 19 notes would sound "wrong" to our ears that have been trained on 12. But that's doesn't make it objectively wrong. And that's my subjective opinion

[silverpants]

theory is fun and useful, as long as you keep in mind that it's primarily concerned with was has been done before. not at all with what you ought to do, unless you want it to be. it's a framework for predicting the expectations of your listeners, but doesn't prescribe how you should handle those expectations.

You've said that better than I could. Thumbs up.

[cdbaksu]

are you saying that hegemonic western music theory is the 747 and all the remaining music of all time and space is on the technical level of kite flying in this analogy? hopefully not, but it sort of looks that way...

theory is fun and useful, as long as you keep in mind that it's primarily concerned with was has been done before. not at all with what you ought to do, unless you want it to be. it's a framework for predicting the expectations of your listeners, but doesn't prescribe how you should handle those expectations.

No, I'm saying the pursuit of knowledge in any field can elevate the flight of the kite to the amazing achievements of the 747.

[emikaela]

are you saying that hegemonic western music theory is the 747 and all the remaining music of all time and space is on the technical level of kite flying in this analogy? hopefully not, but it sort of looks that way...

theory is fun and useful, as long as you keep in mind that it's primarily concerned with was has been done before. not at all with what you ought to do, unless you want it to be. it's a framework for predicting the expectations of your listeners, but doesn't prescribe how you should handle those expectations.

No, I'm saying the pursuit of knowledge in any field can elevate the flight of the kite to the amazing achievements of the 747.

right, i'm glad i misunderstood that then.

[IV!]

Creating music only with your heart you can do something what you like.
Creating music only according Theory you can do something that many people will like.
Creating music in search of a compromise between the dictates of the heart and Theory, you can do something that will please you and many people. And if you really succeed in this, you will be able to create something great that can change/expand the Theory and aspirations of the hearts of many people.

P.S. I hope in a better direction!

[cdbaksu]

Creating music only with your heart you can do something what you like.
Creating music only according Theory you can do something that many people will like.
Creating music in search of a compromise between the dictates of the heart and Theory, you can do something that will please you and many people. And if you really succeed in this, you will be able to create something great that can change/expand the Theory and aspirations of the hearts of many people.

P.S. I hope in a better direction!

Creating music only with your heart isn't really enough to portray your feelings. One might 'like' what one creates, but it's the untapped (unskilled?) potential that one's missing out on, and will also sound like that. It'll be a pretty weak reflection of said feelings.

Creating music only according to theory doesn't happen, ever. The theory acts as a foundation upon which one expresses their feeling. Playing tennis without the net isn't playing tennis.

Creating music in search of a compromise between what the heart dictates and theory is also a non sequitur. And it only shows up as a topic of discussion, and perhaps even passive-aggressive pedalling amongst people who don't undergo the process of learning in the pursuit of knowledge.

Again this applies to pretty much every skill. To take it ad absurdum would be to see forum discussions on how heart surgeons shouldn't care about the theory, 'at least I killed the patient my way!'. Which never happens.

[IV!]

Creating music only with your heart you can do something what you like.
Creating music only according Theory you can do something that many people will like.
Creating music in search of a compromise between the dictates of the heart and Theory, you can do something that will please you and many people. And if you really succeed in this, you will be able to create something great that can change/expand the Theory and aspirations of the hearts of many people.

P.S. I hope in a better direction!

Creating music only with your heart isn't really enough to portray your feelings. One might 'like' what one creates, but it's the untapped (unskilled?) potential that one's missing out on, and will also sound like that. It'll be a pretty weak reflection of said feelings.

That's what I'm talking about!) If a person does not know more, he can be content with less.

Creating music only according to theory doesn't happen, ever. The theory acts as a foundation upon which one expresses their feeling. Playing tennis without the net isn't playing tennis.

Sometimes it seems to me that a lot of modern music is created only according to guides / rules and without a single "own" note from the composer. They even call themselves not a composers, but a producers, as if making good music is the least of their problems compared to its promotion and sale.

Creating music in search of a compromise between what the heart dictates and theory is also a non sequitur. And it only shows up as a topic of discussion, and perhaps even passive-aggressive pedalling amongst people who don't undergo the process of learning in the pursuit of knowledge.

I'm completely confused, how do You create your music? Maybe we describe the same things in different words?)

[silverpants]

There can be a "right and wrong" with heart surgery though - since there is a agreed upon measurable good/bad outcome (live /die!). Theory is essential! Whereas with music creation (and art in general) there is no objective measure on what is good.

I also think singing and dancing are partly innate in humans. I'm sure if a group of children grew up in the wild with no cultural background they would invent their own music - and I would love to hear what that sounded like - away from the biases we grow up with. Maybe they would feel natural with rhythms that repeated every five beats - instead of 3 or 4. Why not?

I have the same thoughts about dancing. I love dancing - but I have never learned any rules. It is the moment when my conscious mind is in least control and I am purely expressing myself. I don't think - I just let my body go (I try to get into this state to write music - but I don't find it so easy). My wife has tried to get me to learn ballroom dancing with her - but I hate condensing my free expression into a set of rules. Maybe it's just me - maybe I have a problem with rules! (I'm not writing this from prison btw).

[silverpants]

And to clarify. I have great respect for the pursuit of knowledge. I spend a lot of time reading about science and history myself. And I respect people who strive to understand music theory. It's just not my personal preferred approach.

[Taron]

Tssss...what a weird discussion, bringing out the best and worst of all of us, hm!?
Yeah, damn math, too, and thinking in general, because that is for evil-doers, pah. And let's express our luddite conviction by using synths... ...you mean, software, utterly conceived in math and science on devices of technology that didn't come straight out of the jungle? That is terrible. Let's go back to quilted bamboo bongos and throat-singing. (Damn it, I love throat-singing)

[Taron]

And to clarify. I have great respect for the pursuit of knowledge. I spend a lot of time reading about science and history myself. And I respect people who strive to understand music theory. It's just not my personal preferred approach.

Totally doesn't have to be. It's an option, something that is available. It's something you have access to, in case you embrace inspiration from logical concepts and don't mind picking up on stuff that others have nurtured over millennia. And it's not at all about "western" concepts or the likes. They just happen to be fairly easy compared to certain eastern approaches and most of our virtual tools are geared toward the math behind familiar, musical conventions like the western scales and so on.

It also doesn't exactly represent "pursuit of knowledge", but the pursuit of understanding more about how you can handle music and realize your musical impulses.