Have we reached the end of hardware synths with software plug-ins?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
RELATED
PRODUCTS
kritikon
KVRAF
6319 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Post Wed May 25, 2022 10:01 am

Hoarder. So funny - sw users are no less hoarders than hw users. Go to the FX forum here and see how many have 15 reverbs - yeah they're cheap but there is no way on earth you need 15 reverbs, never was and never will be. Or every limiter on the market - how many different flavours of squashed can you possibly need? It's just cheaper to be a sw hoarder is all.

I can safely say hw users have less hw units than the vast majority of pulgin users have plugins.

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
95325 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Wed May 25, 2022 10:05 am

kritikon wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:01 am Hoarder. So funny - sw users are no less hoarders than hw users. Go to the FX forum here and see how many have 15 reverbs - yeah they're cheap but there is no way on earth you need 15 reverbs, never was and never will be. Or every limiter on the market - how many different flavours of squashed can you possibly need? It's just cheaper to be a sw hoarder is all.

I can safely say hw users have less hw units than the vast majority of pulgin users have plugins.
i couldn't argue with bones post there.
it's true, i do have some bnib star wars bits :hihi:
we're all mad here! im mad, youre mad, everybody is mad!!

User avatar
machinesworking
KVRAF
4451 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Wed May 25, 2022 10:06 am

Uncle E wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:56 am
machinesworking wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:40 am The Surface is a better idea than the iPad, but the iPad presents itself as completely different than Mac OS, it attempts to get rid of the computer keyboard entirely, and most people love this.
Also, those first versions of Surface were terrible and it's pretty hard to change public perception after that. The first iPad was limited but pretty much flawlessly delivered on what it promised.

Another thing, at least by the time the Surface 2 was released, there were already excellent Ultrabooks that worked better, cost less (half the price!), and were more powerful.
Yeah that was a fatal mistake, Microsoft had the capability to make a great product and didn't. Again their complete lack of logic on this is crazy. Mediocre is not a goal post.

That said, my touch screen is a hack it's using trackpad gestures and Mackie Control surface support to get multi touch support on Mac OS.
Sorry, are you referring to Raven?
Yeah, just pointing out that it's funny in a way that the the Mac user is touting touch support for DAW work, even though it took a lot of effort for Slate to make the Raven into a touch screen that had good action on Mac. Ironically it's the Windows guy who thinks it's bunk, and maybe it's because hardware and software wise it's still an afterthought on Windows despite being "old tech" by now?

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
13595 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed May 25, 2022 5:29 pm

Nah, as I said, the touch experience with Win11 on my UX482 is as good as anything, including iPad, and way better than any previous experience with things like Surface Pro and Surface Book.
machinesworking wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:40 amOne of the reasons Microsoft are a non starter as a company that changes the way people work is clear. They cannot for the life of themselves sell or explain a tech in a way that makes it at all appealing.
Absolutely. Microsoft are theworst when it comes to the consumer market and i hate them because they have f**ked me over several times when they drop product that are far and away the best at what they do but Microsoft couldn't convince anyone. But that's the thing, I don't give a toss about the company, I am only interested in the products. Brands are nothing more than a con and you'll always get better products from the under-dog, for the simple reaosn they have to try so much harder. That's why the best laptops I've owned have been from Asus and Acer, not Sony or Dell. That's why I have a Kobo not a Kindle and it's why Zune was so much better than iPod/iTunes.
Apple for whatever reason refuse to integrate the two, probably because they know how easily confused the general public is, and iPad sales prove them right.
Apple don't integrrate them because they want to keep selling you two products instead of just one.
Things like mixing at the end, and real time manipulation of soft synths for patch design, these are areas of workflow where it's patently obvious once you use touch screens, that it's better.
Sorry but that's not been my experience at all. In fact, I'd go as far as to say I hate working with touch. Everything has to be too big to use screen space efficiently and your hand gets in the way, so you can't see what you're doing half the time. I hate it. It feels like finger-painting when I need to be using a sharp pencil.
They just can't create any sort of traction for anything really.
I don't think they care, really. They aren't focused on the consumer market these days, it's all about Azure.
Previously here I would write the phrase into the DAW and fine adjust the sound to the loop etc. but once you get used to being able to write the sound first as you play, it changes things.
I don't think I really understand what you're getting at but I can count the number of times I've played anything into the piano roll over the last 20 years on the fingers of one hand. Most of the time I'll try at least half-a-dozen instruments for a part before I settle on one so the sound I use while I'm writing is pretty much never the one I end up with in the finished piece.
I think we've talked about it before, but the Zenbook was on my radar, but certain things seemed a bit awkward, don't like the trackpad placement either.
It's got two touchscreens, I don't even understand why they bother with a trackpad. That said, I like that it has phsyical buttons, I prefer that to the seamless surface we get these days everywhere else. But mine is switched off so it's just wasted space as far as I'm concerned.
Not surprising that if I where you I wouldn't touch a mouse much with the Zenbook you have, that second tinier screen would mostly have the mixer parked there, it's trivial to use a modifier to get fine fader adjustments.
"Modifier"? I use the extra screen for the piano roll because its height isn't well suited to the mixer in S1 - it's either not tall enough or there's too much wasted space.
"modifier" key, i.e. shift or alt etc. depending on the DAW.
Probably by the time I'm dead OS and software engineers will figure out how to adjust sizes of GUIs for every screen they will live on.
Again, your particular setup isn't looking to great for touch screen, tiny screens that you have a hard time using. The other part is again, change is not fun for some people.
I use touch wherever and whenever it's appropriate, probably as much as you do by the sound of it. It's just not appropriate when I'm trying to be very precise but it's pretty much muscle memory these days when I want to close a window/application or switch tabs in Edge.
Personally I use the track channel strip and tracks arrangement page (or whatever your DAW calls it), the second screen alternates between the full mixer and the MIDI editor.
I used to have to do the same and I didn't like it much. To me it would make a lot more sense to put the piano roll in the arrangement/timeline window than in with the mixer but nobody seems to do it that way, although Cubase lets you edit MIDI directly in the arrangment window (but it's a bit messy to get there).
Uncle E wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:56 amAnother thing, at least by the time the Surface 2 was released, there were already excellent Ultrabooks that worked better, cost less (half the price!), and were more powerful.
I dunno. I went from a first gen Asus Zenbook to a Surface Pro 2 and it was a decent step up in every way. I was using it for some pretty heavy-duty stuff in 2013-14 and it never let me down. I'm pretty sure I finished our 3rd album on it, or at least did a lot of the work.
kritikon wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:01 amHoarder. So funny - sw users are no less hoarders than hw users.
Abso-fucken-lutely, you'll get no argument from me on that.
I can safely say hw users have less hw units than the vast majority of pulgin users have plugins.
But you can't say the same about how much you've spent on them.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win11(64), UR44C | Studio One | GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Olga, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, Thorn, Odyssey, Equator, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

kritikon
KVRAF
6319 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Post Wed May 25, 2022 6:56 pm

Dunno 'bout that. It's really not unusual to see 5-10 reverb owners. Reverbs go up to $250 or so. 10 of those at full price could buy you a Lexicon box. Synths - it wouldn't be silly to think some have them in the hundreds - even if it's only 30 or so plugins at $100 (and some certainly cost more than that) - I can buy a lot of hw synths for that...probably not that different a spend with some sw hoarders than low grade hw hoarders like myself.

In another instruments forum thread about UVI going subscription - someone on there said they spend on average $1000 per year on sw - every year. I honestly haven't spent anywhere near that on hw. I had a big splurge this and last year but went years without buying much. For me personally - plenty of sw users spend more than I do and at least I get physical toys to play with.

User avatar
Uncle E
KVRAF
13237 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California

Post Wed May 25, 2022 7:50 pm

rafa1981 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:51 am On the "Logitech MX master" series you can make the mouse wheel to be free running with no drag. For me that was a game changer. Very similar to using an endless encoder. I don't want anything else now. The only thing I could probably miss from hardware could be the ability to tweak two knobs at once.
This is killer. Thanks! :)

User avatar
Septic Underground
KVRist
43 posts since 27 Dec, 2021 from Nederland

Post Wed May 25, 2022 11:03 pm

Uncle E wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:50 pm
rafa1981 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:51 am On the "Logitech MX master" series you can make the mouse wheel to be free running with no drag. For me that was a game changer. Very similar to using an endless encoder. I don't want anything else now. The only thing I could probably miss from hardware could be the ability to tweak two knobs at once.
This is killer. Thanks! :)
Yeah I use one to, it is a nice mouse. You can switch the wheel to get a notched/dented feel or not, so smooth scrolling is on the table literally.

rafa1981
KVRian
735 posts since 4 Jan, 2007

Post Wed May 25, 2022 11:38 pm

Uncle E wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:50 pm This is killer. Thanks! :)
Welcome to the club of those who notice synths/FX whose (drop-down) menus respond to the mouse wheel and those who don't :)

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
13595 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu May 26, 2022 1:07 am

kritikon wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:56 pm Dunno 'bout that. It's really not unusual to see 5-10 reverb owners. Reverbs go up to $250 or so.
I've got 5 reverbs, 6 if that's what Valhalla Supermassive is, but I only paid for one - Shimmerverb - which, from memory was $39 when it was released. I sort of paid for the kHs one but not really, if you know what I mean. I don't think too many people have 5 x $250 reverb plugins.
even if it's only 30 or so plugins at $100 (and some certainly cost more than that) - I can buy a lot of hw synths for that...probably not that different a spend with some sw hoarders than low grade hw hoarders like myself.
In 2020 I spent more on cables and other hardware peripheral shit than I did on VST plugins and I bought quite a few plugins.
In another instruments forum thread about UVI going subscription - someone on there said they spend on average $1000 per year on sw - every year. I honestly haven't spent anywhere near that on hw.
That's one person, I doubt you'd find another. In my hardware days I'd spend $10,000 in a year on new gear. Only every second or third year but still, I doubt I've spent $10k on music software in 22 years of working ITB. Stupidly, I have probably spent that much on hardware over those same 22 years.
I had a big splurge this and last year but went years without buying much. For me personally - plenty of sw users spend more than I do and at least I get physical toys to play with.
I prefer to have virtual ones. As in I literally enjoy working ITB far more than I ever enjoyed working with hardware. Hardware put up so many roadblocks that I'm surprised I ever managed to finish anything, let alone get through hundreds of gigs. These days I can breeze through what would have been a year's worth of work in a month and the amount of time I spend trying to make shit work is probably about 10% of what it was in my hardware days. Best of all, the size boot I need to fit it all in the car has gone from a van in the '80s to a sports car today. And that is a big positive for me.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win11(64), UR44C | Studio One | GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Olga, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, Thorn, Odyssey, Equator, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

YnJ
KVRist
121 posts since 18 Apr, 2021

Post Thu May 26, 2022 1:45 am

Hi, I'm another, I spend more than $1000 on software each year, not including games and software related to other things than music production

SLiC
KVRAF
8850 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Thu May 26, 2022 1:53 am

If you have Eurorack hardware its probably worth now that you paid for it with all the shortages! My Eurorack 'investments' have probably done better than my stocks and shares invests, and certainty more fun :-)

Most of the software I have bought over the last 20 years is pretty much worthless as 'better' things coming out, 85% off sales, devaluation etc...or I have paid a fortune on 'updates' to stay current - you buy a DAW for a barging price and then a few updates later you realise you have spent $500...after 10 years $1000's..if you don't update you loose out on the re-sale value anyway due to the disproportionate 'buy new' vs 'update' price structure...

Not that I care too much, I had my fun and I have never bothered selling software plugins even if I don't use them...hardware however doesn't seem to loose much, I sell hardware and get most of my money back and buy some new hardware...If I pegged it tomorrow my wife and kids could sell my hardware/guitars/amps no problem, its tangible, physical...Obvious! I don't they would even know where to start with software or even find it and had all my passwords!
PC + S49, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, Pro 3, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack + OXI One, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals (Zoia, Beebo)

YnJ
KVRist
121 posts since 18 Apr, 2021

Post Thu May 26, 2022 2:16 am

I've spent a lot more on hardware than software, and I don't really care if the software is more or less worthless, it's not like I sell my hardware unless I have to either. I have only sold a few old hardware synths recently to make space

glokraw
KVRAF
8528 posts since 6 Oct, 2004

Post Thu May 26, 2022 3:11 am

Software use implicitly includes the midi hardware needed to play the notes, and so a midi controller's knobs, sliders, velocity control, aftertouch etc must be included as software 'tactile feel', for argument's sake, not to mention the life that infinitely varying effects chains and automation can provide to the music, should the musician be capable and willing. Bare hardware is limited, but so is beer, and a fair number of hardware synths must also get played by midi controllers of some sort, extnding their 'tactile feel'.

If I had to choose between a waldorf-with xyz midi controller, and a waldorf with-xyz midi controller and a great effects collection, I'll want the effects. But someone in a working band as opposed to a studio, might need to work within live-venue situations, where computer baggage or racks of gear may not always be the first option. I don't take the towncar when I need the 4WD, nor haul the firewood in the towncar. Arguing the choice would be pointless, when there's work needing to be done efficiently. :hyper:
My instrumental music is now on Spotify, Youtube, a playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtlOOPh ... 8-_TqqZ7ij
Franklin Cheney (except on April 15th)

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
13595 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu May 26, 2022 4:59 pm

SLiC wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:53 am If you have Eurorack hardware its probably worth now that you paid for it with all the shortages!
I could sell my car today for five grand more than I paid for it 4 years ago, when it was brand new. It's crazy but it can't last.
Most of the software I have bought over the last 20 years is pretty much worthless
For me it's a write-off the moment I spend the money. I've given a couple of licenses away, discontinued ReFX synths, but the only software I've ever sold is Bitwig, which I sold for what I'd paid for it, so I lost nothing.

Despite that, I reckon I have spent less on software over the last 20 years than I lost when I sold my Korg Trinity. I paid more than $5k for that sucker but had to accept less than $2k just to be rid of it. I lost about $3,400 on it, over about four years. The software I replaced it with, Orion, cost me $59. Even Studio One only cost me $175 (bought it from someone here at KVR). I've never paid more than $100 for any plugin and I've only paid even that much on a few occasions - Phaseplant, Vacuum Pro (I know) and a couple of Kontakt instruments.
85% off sales, devaluation etc..
Smart people only buy stuff when those sales happen. I bought Cubase when it was half price, I bought Arturia's V Collection when it was about 80% off, etc. Vacuum Pro is the only time I feel like I paid more than I needed to but I just got sick of waiting for it to be $10 again. It was down to $15 about a month after I bought it.
I have paid a fortune on 'updates' to stay current
I'm trying to think of any upgrade I've paid for and I keep coming up blank. Maybe Equator 2 and Iron 2 but each of those are brand new instruments and I still use the old ones alongside them. I'd say it's a similar situation to Yamaha's CS1x and CS2x, except the only way I could afford the CS2x was to sell the CS1x, which was a really bad decision because the CS2x wasn't really as good, so I ended up selling it (lost about $500 on it in less than a year) and buying another CS1x. Software doesn't force you into those kinds of expensive situations.
if you don't update you loose out on the re-sale value anyway due to the disproportionate 'buy new' vs 'update' price structure...
You should have seen what a Trinity was worth once the Triton came out. You spent a grand on updates, I threw three times that away when I was ready to upgrade my Trinity. And, of course, I'd done the same thgn when I upgraded from my O1R/W to the Trinity, and when I'd upgraded my M1 to the O1R/W and so on. Tens of thousands of dollars over 12-15 years in upgrades. Again, in the last 20 years I doubt I've spent much more than three grand on music software in total. And the best thing about it is that I still have all of it and it all still works, which means I can load up a song I haven't touched since 2001 and it will load and play, just like it did back then.
I sell hardware and get most of my money back
It all sounds fine but the reality is that you're talking an order of magnitude more money. So I might lose a few tens of dollars if I sell a software license but the money you lose on a $1000 hardware synth would be enough to buy maybe 10 good quality softsynths, so what you're saying is nonsense. I mean, maybe it applies to you but the reaity is that nobody needs to be that stupid, it's a choice you've made.
glokraw wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:11 am Software use implicitly includes the midi hardware needed to play the notes, and so a midi controller's knobs, sliders, velocity control, aftertouch etc must be included as software 'tactile feel', for argument's sake,
OK, I'll argue because I use none of that in the studio. But even if that is true, and I do use my Lightpad Blocks in the studio, you can buy a decent controller for $100. I paid about $80 each for my Lightpads and I bought a MiniLab for about $100 when it was on sale a few years ago. ( I think my bandmate assumed ownership of it some time ago, I doubt I'll ever see it again.) Or I can use my Uno Pro, which cost me $700. So even there, the cost of a hardware synth is many times greater than the cost of a controller.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win11(64), UR44C | Studio One | GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Olga, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, Thorn, Odyssey, Equator, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
95325 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Thu May 26, 2022 5:07 pm

can't take it with you.
save money? might get hit by a bus tomorrow!!!
eat, drink, be merry, for tomorrow we may die.
id only buy weed and lego otherwise.

pick one, that's my answer.
we're all mad here! im mad, youre mad, everybody is mad!!

Return to “Instruments”