One Synth Challenge #159: Surge XT (j5v Wins!)

[baconpaul]

The issue with MTS-ESP isn't how it works. I think Andreya_Autumn was saying it's the commercial version, so it conflicts with the no commercial plugins rule.

This is totally reasonable and also is why we make sure surge supports full keyboard microtuning without mts esp (and make all that code available as a mit submodule so now it is included in a variety of synths). The only problem with such an approach is then you have to individually apply the tuning to each instance.

Again not making a case either way and I don’t set the rules, but just giving some context on how as a a surge dev I think about mts. Basically I think about it the same way I think about modulation devices in live or bitwig, say. Shortcuts to an end result the synth supports but which are outside the synth.

There are an increasing number of synths that provide microtonality only through mts esp by the way, so this may be a more pressing issue if one of those is chosen as an osc entrant. Luckily surge is not such a synth!

Finally some really amazing entries here folks! When the voting is done please let us know the final playlist and we can put it on the surge homepage ahead of the 1.1 release this summer

[FrogsInPants]

The issue with MTS-ESP isn't how it works. I think Andreya_Autumn was saying it's the commercial version, so it conflicts with the no commercial plugins rule.

This is totally reasonable and also is why we make sure surge supports full keyboard microtuning without mts esp (and make all that code available as a mit submodule so now it is included in a variety of synths). The only problem with such an approach is then you have to individually apply the tuning to each instance.

Again not making a case either way and I don’t set the rules, but just giving some context on how as a a surge dev I think about mts. Basically I think about it the same way I think about modulation devices in live or bitwig, say. Shortcuts to an end result the synth supports but which are outside the synth.

There are an increasing number of synths that provide microtonality only through mts esp by the way, so this may be a more pressing issue if one of those is chosen as an osc entrant. Luckily surge is not such a synth!

I can't say it's a trend I like, but there is the free version of MTS-ESP which does not conflict with the rules, so I don't think it's a particularly pressing issue with respect to OSC. It seems like a pain to use in cases where one wants different tunings on different instruments, though. I really appreciate that it is optional in Surge, and that Surge has the graphical tuning editor it does.

[z.prime]

Normally I don't care too much about this stuff, but I tend to agree with the point Frogs made: we cannot change the rules post-submission. Rules say no commercial plugs, so adhere or get disqualified.

[oddy.o.lynx]

This is my submission. Brutal feedback please!

https://soundcloud.com/treeheated/crowsbane

crunchy, love that fat sound

are these patches/presets available?

[emikaela]

commercial midi plugins are allowed as far as i can tell, and mts-esp is to my understanding essentially just a more convenient alternative to midi pitch bend signals. is it possible to save the project in such a way that it can be opened and played back correctly without having the commercial version of the plugin, or does it have to be active during playback?

[liqih]

Yes I also see mts-esp that way, it's a software midi controller/(message filter).

[ElVincente]

same here, I think it should be allowed...

[ELEX]

...is it possible to save the project in such a way that it can be opened and played back correctly without having the commercial version of the plugin, or does it have to be active during playback?

Just tried and in the case of Surge XT it is not. MTS-ESP doesn't change MIDI going into an instrument but the way it is interpreted inside the instrument, the only way to have not have it active during playback would involve recording ( affected ) MIDI output . Surge does not output such MIDI data. Don't know if other instruments do.

So at this time, the full Suite is an obvious rule breaker. (
"...Output from any commercial midi plugins or another DAW should be rendered to midi in the timeline" )

Should we request a rule change for this specific commercial plugin ? It's not just usable for scale tuning, btw. It can also create unison effects quite easily.

[Taron]

Uh, oh, the moment it goes into "chorus/ensemble" territory, it's most definitely a rule-breaker. Anything that just alters incoming Midi should never be a problem, really. That's just compositional and nothing you couldn't replicate in many ways. But with the OSC it really is about the "SOUND" of the synth, like what sound comes out of it. Yeah, reverbs, delays, any spatial treatments, limiting, even transient tweaks, those are fine, but the moment you bend the sound itself, it breaks fundamental rules of the OSC. No, no, no... Midi, sure, but all else:

[EvilDragon]

Generating unison by detuning individual MIDI notes coming into the synth is still not changing the audio. So in my opinion MTS-ESP should be allowed, free or paid suite.

[Taron]

If you use pitch bend, yes, but if you record and then tweak the audio.....nah, it's such a slippery slope. I mean, I'm kind of cringing already when I use supermassive, which is really dangerously close to chorus stuff, if you were to use it that way, but getting any decent reverb out of it makes it impossible to totally avoid. But, yeah... tweaked recording is dangerous alone in terms of precedence.

[ELEX]

@#$#%^! I spoke too soon before. Forgot about the MTS_ESP MIDI client. The output of which CAN be "...rendered to midi in the timeline" The recorded MIDI output is just Note and PB data. So there we go: free unison 4ALL !

[diaseis]

In almost every OSC submissions I've made so far, I've been duplicating synth tracks (sometimes 3 or 4 times) to create unison effects, and thats also how I do when I want a wide sound. Sometimes I would also set some LFO (from MaxForLive usually) on some pitch parameters of the synth to create movement. From what I understand, this is what MTS-ESP does and I can't see how the process I just described could break the rule in anyway.So unless I misunderstood what this plugin does, I guess it should be allowed (and I guess I'm going to try it and maybe buy it because that sounds like a huge time saver )

[Taron]

[diaseis]

@#$#%^! I spoke too soon before. Forgot about the MTS_ESP MIDI client. The output of which CAN be "...rendered to midi in the timeline" The recorded MIDI output is just Note and PB data. So there we go: free unison 4ALL !

Yayyyyyy !