KVR Audio

gorgorgathgorgorgor · Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:19 am

I missed quite the debate! Sorry I wasn't able to submit this last month, I ended up not having a lot of time, and I also didn't really get into Surge that much. Loved all the effects built in, and even used the stand alone FX for my bus effects, but the synth itself is not my favorite. Maybe if I'd had more time to explore it.

Andreya_Autumn · Post by **Andreya_Autumn** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:37 am

Hey all! Many perspectives here, and I see validity in each one. Just to repeat myself, I would've happily accepted any decision on the judges' part.

It's true that MTS-ESP strictly speaking is not necessarily a MIDI plugin like other sequencers/arpeggiators etc. It *can* be, if you use it to generate MPE output. But the way I've used it the MIDI itself is as normal, only the way Surge responds to it is changed. Again, the results are identical, just different methods.

Someone asked if it'd be possible for judges to inspect my project file without having paid for the plug in question, and the answer is definitely yes! Surge will default back to the normal 12-tone tuning if the MTS-ESP master is not present, and honestly I think the tune would sound pretty similar without it.

It would not sound identical in 12-EDO tho, this is true. The tuning does influence the timbre, just like EvilDragon, Diaseis and others mentioned. To be specific, I'm using Just Intonation, which makes notes in a chords blend together differently. It's almost sorta like an opposite musical effect of detuned voice stacking? Makes the notes sound more like *one thing*, kinda... Anyway.

To reiterate, a perfectly identical result *can* be achieved by loading tuning tables into individual Surge instances. It's a good point too, that the rules specifically allow for MIDI from other hosts/plugs, which should be rendered to timeline. That could also be done here, with Surge in MPE mode, to achieve an identical sound.

On request, I'll provide the original .RPP file (obviously) plus a second version modified to play the same exact tuning without the MTS-ESP master. I could do that with multi-instance retuning or with rendered MPE MIDI, judges choice.

Taron · Post by **Taron** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:42 am

Well, if anything, I now really want to find your track and listen to it!!!

...I'm very curious!

I can't believe at all that I have missed yet another round with Surge, which is really by now one of my most favorite synths. No time at all and not enough wriggle room to get into it. Did a few tiny bits that were so fun, but well...

Harry_HH · Post by **Harry_HH** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:00 pm

What's going on - the https://www.onesynthchallenge.org/
site doesn't seem to work properly.
I see all the tracks, but dragging tracks for scoring always just opens the track in the Soundcloud (!?)
The tool used to work earlier, OK. I'm on Win 10.

liqih · Post by **liqih** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm

ELEX wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:11 am It's not just usable for scale tuning, btw. It can also create unison effects quite easily.

Ah, I didn't thought of that. Not that doubling a track in DAW is much harder, Ha..ha..

Though the rules read:

Midi plugins are allowed, or sending midi from one Daw to another.
Output from any commercial midi plugins or another DAW should be rendered to midi in the timeline

Therefore commercial MTS-ESP cannot be rendered as MIDI clip, so it's sadly not allowed.
But the free mini MTS-ESP is available to anyone.

Andreya_Autumn · Post by **Andreya_Autumn** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:21 pm

liqih wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm commercial MTS-ESP cannot be rendered as MIDI clip, so it's sadly not allowed.

Incorrect, the commercial one includes a facility to output MIDI with pitchbend messages, MPE or standard. That MIDI output can be recorded to timeline no problem.
The free version doesn't do this.

Andreya_Autumn · Post by **Andreya_Autumn** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:24 pm

Harry_HH wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:00 pm What's going on - the https://www.onesynthchallenge.org/
site doesn't seem to work properly.
I see all the tracks, but dragging tracks for scoring always just opens the track in the Soundcloud (!?)
The tool used to work earlier, OK. I'm on Win 10.

I'm having the same problem (on Mac). There's a note at the top of the page that says the dragging behavior has changed, but I can't get it to work properly no matter where I drag from.

Andreya_Autumn · Post by **Andreya_Autumn** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:28 pm

Taron wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:42 am Well, if anything, I now really want to find your track and listen to it!!! ...I'm very curious!
I can't believe at all that I have missed yet another round with Surge, which is really by now one of my most favorite synths. No time at all and not enough wriggle room to get into it. Did a few tiny bits that were so fun, but well...

I relate, Surge is one of my go-to tools as well. I still almost didn't finish mine. I do wish I had taken some more time with it tbh, there are some parts I was very happy with in the end. Though the mix and master could've definitely done with some more work. It's a couple pages back in this thread.

Harry_HH · Post by **Harry_HH** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:33 pm

Andreya_Autumn wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:24 pm
Harry_HH wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:00 pm What's going on - the https://www.onesynthchallenge.org/
site doesn't seem to work properly.
I see all the tracks, but dragging tracks for scoring always just opens the track in the Soundcloud (!?)
The tool used to work earlier, OK. I'm on Win 10.
I'm having the same problem (on Mac). There's a note at the top of the page that says the dragging behavior has changed, but I can't get it to work properly no matter where I drag from.

Strange - one could imagine that the moderator had noticed that- Or maybe the "dragging behavior has changed" in the way, that one is not supposed to drag the tracks...

BTW, my iPhone X iOS seems to support this drag'n drop (poorly), haven't tried the Android,yet.

ELEX · Post by **ELEX** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:28 pm

liqih wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm
ELEX wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:11 am It's not just usable for scale tuning, btw. It can also create unison effects quite easily.
Ah, I didn't thought of that. Not that doubling a track in DAW is much harder, Ha..ha..

Doubling tracks is much easier, actually. And has less limitations, since all doubling with MTS_ESP can only use 12 notes.

Unless dynamically changed by note. But I can see some simple fun applications though, like doubling selected notes ( of a scale ) on a second track while playing live. Or a specifically tuned doubling of penta- or hextonic scales. A lot of snags involved with using this plug in OSC though. The mind boggles. Next time I'll think more first, speak later.

doctorbob · Post by **doctorbob** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:29 pm

When dragging you need to drag NEAR the play button. You should get a change of pointer to crossed arrows vs a hand! Works fine on Windows 10, MS Edge. Just dragged my track to the 1 bin!!!!!! As a test and final rating - haha!

dB

treeheated · Post by **treeheated** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:02 pm

oddy.o.lynx wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:32 pm crunchy, love that fat sound

are these patches/presets available?

Attached, for anyone who wants them. I have not included a preset for the vocal count in, because it won't do anything without the automation. But maybe I can recreate it in a self-contained way - I'll think about it.

Harry_HH · Post by **Harry_HH** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:05 pm

doctorbob wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:29 pm When dragging you need to drag NEAR the play button. You should get a change of pointer to crossed arrows vs a hand! Works fine on Windows 10, MS Edge. Just dragged my track to the 1 bin!!!!!! As a test and final rating - haha!

dB

Thank you for commenting, doctor’s orders, I guess.
My default browser in Win 10 is Chrome, obviously I have to test the Edge for this job.
Another question is, should the scoring need special tools and special instructions, as its at the moment, or should it work with the basic computer skills.
And - why was the dragging behaviour changed in the first place - it used to work earlier fine with all my platform, undepending the browser or the OS.

ADDED: Using Edge (or non-using the Chrome) (in Win) seems to be the key.

liqih · Post by **liqih** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:28 pm

Andreya_Autumn wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:21 pm
liqih wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm commercial MTS-ESP cannot be rendered as MIDI clip, so it's sadly not allowed.
Incorrect, the commercial one includes a facility to output MIDI with pitchbend messages, MPE or standard. That MIDI output can be recorded to timeline no problem.
The free version doesn't do this.

Thanks for the info, I though it was like the mini MTS-ESP that I use.

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:17 pm

Yeah and sorry didn’t mean to start an argument

Mts has a couple of modes. A midi mode where midi in goes to mpe out to allow pitch bend of mpe synths (and you can record the midi) and a c api where plugins can ask the daw for the mts instance and get tuning information to apply to standard midi. Surge supports both but most people prefer the second since it is - well - just more convenient really. But we also do full microtuning without mts since it is commercial and we build all our core features with a fully open option if users want that.

In retrospect it certainly seems like the track in question would have been better to just load the scl file 19 times instead

And again appreciate all the wonderful tracks, bug reports, and complements for surge!

One Synth Challenge #159: Surge XT (j5v Wins!)