IK goes AI

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AmpliTube 5 TONEX MAX TONEX SE TONEX Standard

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benjamind wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:06 am
noiseboyuk wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:26 am That seems like a great analogy.

It looks pretty well done to me, but I'm more than happy to wait for the free version to try out in anger, and then wait for the inevitable sales. Could be a while for a new product.
You could be waiting up to a year. Usually they have sales much later on but you never know. They might do a Black Friday sale, who knows but I like the sound even though I already just bought Amplitube standard for less than $70.
It could be longer than a year for the really big sales - IK take their time when it comes to discounting.

Fine by me. I don’t have a burning desire to get this, but it’s kinda interesting, so from their perspective I’m the high-hanging fruit (why do we never hear this phrase?)
http://www.guyrowland.co.uk
http://www.sound-on-screen.com
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I think they have priced this one about right- basic version has all the features and will be good enough for most, most people who use IK will have jampoints so $70 seems fair, I am a max user and mos6tly only upgrade MAX (in sales) as that is the best value route with IK...but for this I will make an exception.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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I really need to see this in action. I really can't understand how we are supposed to capture our rigs as well as IK can, if we don't have the mics, pres, and positioning experience. Garbage in, garbage out, seems like, but with the options of more options.
“The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information.”
-Henry A. Wallace

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Bombadil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:43 pm I really need to see this in action. I really can't understand how we are supposed to capture our rigs as well as IK can, if we don't have the mics, pres, and positioning experience. Garbage in, garbage out, seems like, but with the options of more options.
Yes. But some of us have good amps, microphones, preamps, and reamp boxes/DI's in our home studios. :wink:

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I do too, that doesn't mean I'm an expert. Just have to see this work in practice.
“The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information.”
-Henry A. Wallace

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Ultimately its no so different to mikeing up an amp for recording in a DAW, a bit of theory and bit of trail and error; that's half the fun.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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benjamind wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:06 am Good question. Maybe it's like convolution reverb vs algorithmic reverb. They capture the essence of the amp and the intertwine that with the guitar signal to create the overall sound of a real amp and giving the impression of realism. Algorithmic amp sims cannot provide this realism as of yet.

It's like comparing complex sampling with modeling. Modeling is 95% realistic if you compare the tone whereas sampling is 100% accurate as it is a capture of the actual sound even if it is only a snapshot of a moment in time.
I don’t really follow you. SmartGuitarAmp uses machine learning, just like TONEX. Probably even an identical type of training.

Neural networks are used to select and fine tune equations to model complex non-linear systems. That’s what SmartGuitarAmp uses, and almost certainly what AI Machine Modeling uses. As I said several pages back, there are still standard amp modeling algorithms at the heart of guitar amp machine learning.

The difference is that SmartGuitarAmp is a composite built from multiple ML models to present the entire amp, while TONEX Tone Models are just a single snapshot that don’t give you the whole amp.

Both appear to have some off-the-shelf EQ (not derived from ML) built in as well.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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SmartGuitarAmp looks like a cool (but early) github project, the current version models one amp with just a few things to tweak. I suspect it will be more complicated to make models with SmartGuitarAmp - ''You can create your own models and load them in SmartGuitarAmp with minor code modifications. To train your own models, use PedalNetRT''

TONEX has more things that can alter the sound like built in compressor, reverb etc, a lot more models already in to play with and simplified capture. You can also use it 'in' A5 and have the on line model and pre-set exchange. To me that worth 70$.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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I’m comparing SmartGuitarAmp to TONEX from a development standpoint only.

The point is IK could have done the same thing and used ML to make complete amp models, instead of these glorified presets. The technology both are using is identical. And yes, SmartGuitarAmp is built on (and augments) a larger open source ML project which does exactly what AI Machine Modeling does.

But it is certainly possible that TONEX is just IK’s initial foray into ML, and a future version of AmpliTube (AT6) will throw out all the old gear models and reintroduce IK’s entire stable of amps as proper, complete models.

But understanding how IK operates, that’s unlikely. Instead they just pile new on top of old until the whole thing is an incomprehensible mess. Sadly, I expect that to continue unabated.

AmpliTube is like a hoarder house where no one has taken out the garbage in 20 years.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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Peter - IK Multimedia wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:49 pm For those who had questions about the Player/Editor, different controls you have on the Tone Models, etc, we have just released this video:

https://youtu.be/Ns2ui4ps7NI
So the part that interests me is really really badly shown, namely the Gain control, and its still not clear whether this brings in more distortion, since in the video at :56 you get a second of time on it and he sweeps the control with little noticeable difference. I can't tell if the gain knob down does anything because at the same time he's playing a palm muted part. Again is the gain adding AI modeled distortion etc. or is it a slight saturation from Amplitube?

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machinesworking wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:54 pmSo the part that interests me is really really badly shown, namely the Gain control, and its still not clear whether this brings in more distortion, since in the video at :56 you get a second of time on it and he sweeps the control with little noticeable difference. I can't tell if the gain knob down does anything because at the same time he's playing a palm muted part. Again is the gain adding AI modeled distortion etc. or is it a slight saturation from Amplitube?
I agree that needed more time spent on it, which is kind suspicious. Logically, I can see how it might have some effect beyond volume. The test signals will presumably sweep from lo to high gain input, the low stuff will sound cleaner and the high more distorted. This control could weight the response towards either extreme. What I’d imagine it cannot do is truly replicate the full sweep of a real gain control. So better than volume but nowhere near as good as the real thing.

Still, it’s going to be useful. Using the paradigm of the convolusion vs algorithmic, it might give a little bit more useful control with this convolusion model.

IMO it’s completely pointless at this stage to complain this isn’t full modelled gear. If that’s what you want, this isn’t it, so shrug and move on.
http://www.guyrowland.co.uk
http://www.sound-on-screen.com
W10, i7 7820X, 64gb RAM, RME Babyface, 1050ti, PT 2023 Ultimate, Cubase Pro 13
Macbook Air M2 OSX 10.15

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Bombadil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:43 pm I really need to see this in action. I really can't understand how we are supposed to capture our rigs as well as IK can, if we don't have the mics, pres, and positioning experience. Garbage in, garbage out, seems like, but with the options of more options.
Maybe IK should make some kind of authoring and protection system like NI does with Kontakt. I could see a lot of big name musicians and engineers making captures if they’re able to retain the ownership and most of the profit.

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I'll just mic my VOX AC-15. Or use what's there in Amplitube and Scuffham Amps. Give non-musicians double-blind tests and they'll likely score no better than chance identifying an amp or a sim.
“The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information.”
-Henry A. Wallace

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Uncle E wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:08 pm Maybe IK should make some kind of authoring and protection system like NI does with Kontakt. I could see a lot of big name musicians and engineers making captures if they’re able to retain the ownership and most of the profit.
It would kill IKM "expansion packs" income

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tappert wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:48 pm It would kill IKM "expansion packs" income
NI charges setup fees and keeps a percentage of every sale. IK would lose a little profit compared to their own expansion but I think they would become the new standard if they do it. Think of how many huge artists would release packs.

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