CS-80 vst emulation on budget recommendation

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mholloway
KVRAF
2128 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA

Post Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:15 pm

zzz00m wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:29 pm
mholloway wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:59 pm Arturia go on and on about the accuracy of their modeling, yet they add TWO modes modes to the CS-80 V4 envelope timing and can't bother to make EITHER of them match the original. They're not even close. What the hell are they thinking? The first thing I noticed after getting their V4 was how weird and difficult the envelopes felt. The attack slider is basically worthless for swelling pads until you switch it over to 'classic' mode.
Well considering that the original hardware CS-80's don't even match each other, which one do you propose that Arturia or anyone else match?
The official CS-80 documentation that was shared earlier in the thread. It has explicit times listed, by yamaha, by the CS-80 designers. That's clearly what Yamaha intended each synth be calibrated to. Is that so hard to grasp as the proper 'target' for an emulation? I'm also not convinced the variance between envelopes times is so drastic between CS-80 units, but of course I can't be sure. It's certainly not as drastic as the difference between Arturia's new timings and 'classic' timings, which differ by 10+ seconds, for real. Given that they promoted both as 'acccurate', I wonder which one is actually 'accurate'? They can't both be, with a spread like that!

zzz00m
KVRAF
3593 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:37 pm

mholloway wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:15 pm The official CS-80 documentation that was shared earlier in the thread. It has explicit times listed, by yamaha, by the CS-80 designers. That's clearly what Yamaha intended each synth be calibrated to. Is that so hard to grasp as the proper 'target' for an emulation? I'm also not convinced the variance between envelopes times is so drastic between CS-80 units, but of course I can't be sure. It's certainly not as drastic as the difference between Arturia's new timings and 'classic' timings, which differ by 10+ seconds, for real. Given that they promoted both as 'acccurate', I wonder which one is actually 'accurate'? They can't both be, with a spread like that!
Who actually cares? IMO close enough is good enough! Use your ears and go make some music! :D

Those hardware dinosaurs have very complex analog circuitry that is so old now (over 45 years) that you really need to throw out the specs book, and talk to some folks who maintain and restore them!
Windows 10 and too many plugins

Cuauhtli
KVRist
290 posts since 6 Nov, 2010

Post Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:20 pm

The Long mode in Arturia's version has min envelope times of 2ms and max ADSR times of 10, 25, 10, 40 seconds. Aside from the 1ms difference on the attack min time, you can match (limit yourself to) the hardware specs if you want.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Emerson

mholloway
KVRAF
2128 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA

Post Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:39 am

zzz00m wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:37 pm
mholloway wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:15 pm The official CS-80 documentation that was shared earlier in the thread. It has explicit times listed, by yamaha, by the CS-80 designers. That's clearly what Yamaha intended each synth be calibrated to. Is that so hard to grasp as the proper 'target' for an emulation? I'm also not convinced the variance between envelopes times is so drastic between CS-80 units, but of course I can't be sure. It's certainly not as drastic as the difference between Arturia's new timings and 'classic' timings, which differ by 10+ seconds, for real. Given that they promoted both as 'acccurate', I wonder which one is actually 'accurate'? They can't both be, with a spread like that!
Who actually cares? IMO close enough is good enough! Use your ears and go make some music! :D
Oh you're right, nobody in the history of KVR or Gearspace etc has ever cared about whether an analog synth emulation accurately emulates the hardware it's based on :tu:

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Boy Wonder
KVRian
533 posts since 30 Jan, 2021

Post Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:57 am

By the time everyone on KVR says, "I don't care if it's a close emulation of the original. It sounds fine as it is, so I'm making music with it," I would've been worm food for 100 years.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.

chk071
KVRAF
33355 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:59 am

If no one cared about how close an emulation behaves or sounds to the original, there would be absolutely zero point for any emulation, unless you care about how close the GUI looks to the original.

ESPECIALLY if someone specifically asks for an emulation.

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Chris-S
KVRAF
2881 posts since 10 Nov, 2013 from Germany

Post Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:08 am

Chris-S wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:18 am Shape:
Envelopes.jpg
And here the envelope of the hardware (sampled from a YT video), it seems that shorter attacks are more linear than longer attacks.
cs80adsr.jpg
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NikkiA
KVRist
266 posts since 24 Jul, 2006

Post Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:23 am

DocAtlas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:28 pm
Dasheesh wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:54 am There is a free modular running around called CM (something) by K (something something something) that I can't remember, but has a great filter.
It's probably on this site: https://kbrownsynthplugins.weebly.com/. There are several plugins that start with CS. I don't know what they sound like, but they're both free. Some of them are only 32 bit though, so they may not be what you want.
I think it's more likely they were thinking of KxPolyM-CSE which has some elements of the CS-70M on top of it's Synthi/EMS inspired modular-ness

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/kx-pol ... y-kx77free

Dirk Diggler
KVRian
517 posts since 12 Sep, 2007

Post Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:29 am

How about the brand spanking new Cherry Audio GX80.
https://cherryaudio.com/
$59
Lots of folks seem to enjoy it.

Rod Staples
KVRist
368 posts since 3 May, 2004 from UK

Post Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:46 am

Apratim wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:16 pm ...arturia's CS-80 emulation (which is too damm expensive for me)...
Look on KnobCloud, you can get one for around $40 or €35
i7-9700, 32GB, 2TB Nvme, Win 11, Bitwig 4 (previously Cubase 12)

yul
KVRian
1319 posts since 26 Sep, 2002 from Montreal, CANADA

Post Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:45 am

KX synths most likely as the best free option imo

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Chris-S
KVRAF
2881 posts since 10 Nov, 2013 from Germany

Post Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:17 am

Frequency response compare:
One saw wave C3 with channel and global LPF und Brill. sliders full open.

In the GX-80 there is some max. limit for the resonance peak at 12 khz.

ME-80 saw is completely flat.
saw-arturia.png
saw-gx80.png
(SPAN slope setting: 6 dB)
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martinjuenke
KVRAF
6113 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Hanover, Germany

Post Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:49 am

Boy Wonder wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:57 am By the time everyone on KVR says, "I don't care if it's a close emulation of the original. It sounds fine as it is, so I'm making music with it," I would've been worm food for 100 years.
That big you are? :o

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wagtunes
KVRAF
21013 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Post Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:17 pm

chk071 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:59 am If no one cared about how close an emulation behaves or sounds to the original, there would be absolutely zero point for any emulation, unless you care about how close the GUI looks to the original.

ESPECIALLY if someone specifically asks for an emulation.
I think most people care to a point. If it's close (subjective term) that's good enough. I think the minority of the population is to the point where every envelope has to be 100% spot on and the osc waveform has to look identical to the hardware unit, not that that's even possible in some cases where the hardware is notorious for fluctuations in its sound from one instrument to another and even from one day to another.

I'm not that anal. But yes, I expect the "Gary Numan Cars Patch" on my Xils PolyM to sound close enough to where I'm saying to myself, "Yep, that's the sound."

The only emulations I've ever heard that were 100% identical were the Korg synths in the legacy collection such as the Wavestation, because it's literally the same software. I owned a Wavestation and can honestly say there is no difference in the sound.

But that's where it ends. Every other emulation I've ever purchased is not 100% identical to the hardware.

I don't care.

YMMV

chk071
KVRAF
33355 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:26 pm

Of course, 100 % accuracy is not possible, but, some emulations are really far away from the sound of the original.

I won't name names. :)

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