Are the current generation of Windows laptops suitable for pro audio use? (none available at Scan)

[BennyG]

So my current i7 laptop is starting to feel a bit long in the tooth (it's a Scan build that I purchased over 4 years ago), and I'm in the market for a replacement. I did what I would usually do and went to the Scan website to check current prices and see if I could configure a 3XS system, but there's nothing there. There's this page:

https://www.scan.co.uk/shops/proaudio/3xs-laptops

...but I found that the 'View Range' link just goes to desktop workstations, and 'Configure a Laptop' brings up a 404 error . Tried emailing them, and I got a very friendly message back from the sales team confirming the following:


"Unfortunately there is an issue with using Laptops as Audio workstations due to an issue with the battery monitoring.

All Clevo laptops are currently experiencing issues with the audio glitching and cutting out when the system runs the battery monitoring in the background, this issue has occurred since the 22H2 update on Windows. We have fed this back to the relevant companies and are just awaiting for this issue to be resolved but due to this we are unable to offer any 3XS Audio Laptops and it would be blind luck in regards to an off the shelf laptop having the same issue."


I've always relied on custom laptop builds and been happy to pay the premium that brings the peace of mind of knowing that the system will be stable and free of DPC latency issues and the like. So I'm not really sure where to go now.

Are the above battery monitoring issues a widely known problem? And does anyone have any recent experience of purchasing a Win 11 based pro audio laptop system? Mine will be for live use and it's a lot of money to drop in one go, so I don't want to make a huge mistake here

Any recommendations for alternative UK laptop pro audio companies? Or do I just wait it out and hope Scan bring their range back? It's been a month since they contacted me and the only advice offered was keep checking the website (oh, and don't update my current Windows 10 Clevo machine to Windows 11).

[uOpt]

"Battery monitoring"? How did they figure that as the culprit for the glitches? The only way to verify that would be if you can turn it on and off. But if you could turn it on and off there would be no-breaker.

I agree with them that there is no way to predict how a currently new laptop will behave in detail.

[FranklyFlawless]

I've always relied on custom laptop builds and been happy to pay the premium that brings the peace of mind of knowing that the system will be stable and free of DPC latency issues and the like. So I'm not really sure where to go now.

Are the above battery monitoring issues a widely known problem? And does anyone have any recent experience of purchasing a Win 11 based pro audio laptop system? Mine will be for live use and it's a lot of money to drop in one go, so I don't want to make a huge mistake here

Any recommendations for alternative UK laptop pro audio companies? Or do I just wait it out and hope Scan bring their range back? It's been a month since they contacted me and the only advice offered was keep checking the website (oh, and don't update my current Windows 10 Clevo machine to Windows 11).

The issue is Windows 11's battery monitoring, so all you need to do is get a new Clevo laptop, but use Windows 10 instead. If you want some advice picking and configuring one out, give me a budget and other criteria. I mostly used Sager laptops and desktop replacements, but that was back during Broadwell. I have a laptop from a different company now using Comet Lake.

[BennyG]

Thanks for the replies. I rather suspect that the battery monitoring thing might just be one of a potential host of issues - judging by other threads on here and elsewhere, it does appear that Windows 11 is harder to set up for audio than 10 (or at least, it seems like there are more things that can go wrong).

Thanks for the suggestion FranklyFlawless, but I really would rather go with a seller who builds and sets up systems specifically for audio use. My last two Windows audio laptops (from Scan and another similar company here in the UK) were both so easy to get started with - simply a matter of plugging in my interface, installing my VSTs and straight into it. I'm really not confident with the idea of configuring it all myself. Unless I'm misunderstanding your suggestion?

I just find it odd that companies like PCAudioLabs and ADK (both based in the US so not an option for me) have current models for sale, but Scan don't. Does it literally just come down to the base models and these other companies not using Clevo units? And if the Clevo/Win 11 combo is such an unresolvable issue, why not sell them with Windows 10 installed instead?

I'm really perplexed here, and still unable to find a suitable dealer in the UK

[FranklyFlawless]

Thanks for the suggestion FranklyFlawless, but I really would rather go with a seller who builds and sets up systems specifically for audio use. My last two Windows audio laptops (from Scan and another similar company here in the UK) were both so easy to get started with - simply a matter of plugging in my interface, installing my VSTs and straight into it. I'm really not confident with the idea of configuring it all myself. Unless I'm misunderstanding your suggestion?

There is very little separating Scan Computers from other manufacturers, especially considering that they use Clevo under a white-label. Their branding is directed towards creative professionals, but their hardware configurations for their laptops are just like other Clevo white-labels. That is why I mentioned Sager in my post, as they operate similarily, but target "gamers" instead. Eurocom is for mobile workstations/servers, and targets those who need a desktop replacement. If you want more examples, check out the Wikipedia article's table. Note the term "value-added resellers".

I just find it odd that companies like PCAudioLabs and ADK (both based in the US so not an option for me) have current models for sale, but Scan don't. Does it literally just come down to the base models and these other companies not using Clevo units? And if the Clevo/Win 11 combo is such an unresolvable issue, why not sell them with Windows 10 installed instead?

I'm really perplexed here, and still unable to find a suitable dealer in the UK

There is one benefit to Scan in that they tested the battery monitoring on Windows 11 beforehand and proactively delisted their laptops. Other companies are unlikely to test for audio issues, as that involves more work and resources. You will find that most companies do not have the facilities to create laptop chassis. Only the industry titans such as Apple, Dell, Lenevo, and Microsoft do. The more niche the target market, especially for laptops, the more likely Clevo will be used to cut costs and expenses.

The reason why Windows 10 is not offered is because that is not the "latest and greatest". It would be problematic for any company to sell Windows 10 now because that would affect their reputation. Also, if the battery monitoring issue in Windows 11 would be resolved, version upgrades would need to be coordinated for those who are on Windows 10. That is a lot of trouble and headache for any company, and it still is for Microsoft themselves.

If you want UK dealers, Entroware is one. As I suggested before, you will need to install Windows 10 for now until Windows 11 no longer has the battery monitoring issue. How will you know the issue is fixed? When Scan lists their laptops again.

Let me know if you have a budget and criteria and want to continue down this path, or if you want to stick to your current laptop until Scan starts offering their laptops again.

[BennyG]

The reason why Windows 10 is not offered is because that is not the "latest and greatest". It would be problematic for any company to sell Windows 10 now because that would affect their reputation. Also, if the battery monitoring issue in Windows 11 would be resolved, version upgrades would need to be coordinated for those who are on Windows 10. That is a lot of trouble and headache for any company, and it still is for Microsoft themselves.

Ah yes, of course. This makes perfect sense. I wonder then, if it might be worth contacting Scan's sales team directly and asking if they would be willing to set up a system with Win 10 installed? It appears they still sell at least one 'content creation' laptop, which has very similar specs to the audio workstations they were selling before they disappeared from the site:

https://www.scan.co.uk/3xs/configurator ... rbolt-3080

A machine with those specs would be almost exactly what I'm after.

Let me know if you have a budget and criteria and want to continue down this path, or if you want to stick to your current laptop until Scan starts offering their laptops again.

That would be very interesting, if it's not too much hassle for you. Ideally, I'd be looking for a 17" screen, Intel i9 (or AMD equivalent), 64GB RAM, a pair of 1TB drives, and Nvidia graphics with 16GB VRAM (since I'm also really interested in messing around with AI image generation). Budget is fairly flexible - I was initially hoping to keep it under £2k, but I don't think that's possible with these specs, and I have a few bits of gear I can sell if need be. Plus I can claw back a few hundred £ selling the old laptop once I've transferred everything across to the new one.

I found another UK dealer who seem to be quite reasonably priced - PC Specialist. Any idea if they'd be worth a shout?

[BONES]

Thanks for the replies. I rather suspect that the battery monitoring thing might just be one of a potential host of issues - judging by other threads on here and elsewhere, it does appear that Windows 11 is harder to set up for audio than 10 (or at least, it seems like there are more things that can go wrong).

I stopped worrying about shit like this years ago and Windows 11 is working fine for me on two different Asus portables - a laptop and a 2-in-1. There are things I don't like about Windows 11 but I can't find fault with its performance, except that it doesn't really like you having multiple apps open at once, even something as innocuous as a browser. There are probably settings that could fix the issue, give Studio One higher priority, but I'm used to only having one thing open at a time so it doesn't bother me. It's also only an issue with ASIO, playback is utterly flawless under Windows Audio.

[FranklyFlawless]

I wonder then, if it might be worth contacting Scan's sales team directly and asking if they would be willing to set up a system with Win 10 installed? It appears they still sell at least one 'content creation' laptop, which has very similar specs to the audio workstations they were selling before they disappeared from the site:

https://www.scan.co.uk/3xs/configurator ... rbolt-3080

A machine with those specs would be almost exactly what I'm after.

Probably not. Even if they did, they will upcharge you for the service, when you can do it for cheaper yourself. I can help you save money by getting far better hardware for a similar price elsewhere.

Ideally, I'd be looking for a 17" screen, Intel i9 (or AMD equivalent), 64GB RAM, a pair of 1TB drives, and Nvidia graphics with 16GB VRAM (since I'm also really interested in messing around with AI image generation). Budget is fairly flexible - I was initially hoping to keep it under £2k, but I don't think that's possible with these specs, and I have a few bits of gear I can sell if need be. Plus I can claw back a few hundred £ selling the old laptop once I've transferred everything across to the new one.

I found another UK dealer who seem to be quite reasonably priced - PC Specialist. Any idea if they'd be worth a shout?

From my perspective, any UK dealer works, PC Specialist included. If you are open to anything outside of that, let me know since that will increase your options.

The only AMD equivalent to the current Intel i9 series is the AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX, but as far as I know, is currently only available on certain ASUS laptops, not Clevo laptops.

Normally, audio workstations do not come with GPUs because they are not needed for any part of the music production workflow. If you want a NVIDIA GPU with 16GB of GDDR6 VRAM, that leaves you with exactly one option, the GeForce RTX 4090, which is the flagship graphics card. If you still want to go that route, be prepared to spend tons of money for it to mess around with AI image generation.

The only laptop that meets all of your criteria from PC Specialist is the Recoil. When configured with 64 GB of Corsair DDR5 RAM, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090, 2 x 1 TB of Intel 670p, and no operating system, the sub-total comes to £2,321.67 ex. VAT, or £2,786.00 inc. VAT. This assumes you are okay with any pair of 32 GB DDR5 RAM and 1 TB NVMe M.2 SSDs in order to minimize configuration costs.

You can also save money by ordering RAM and SSDs elsewhere, then install them into the laptop after it arrives. That is what I did with my current laptop. I cherry picked every component within it for maximum performance. If you are interested in this option for the Recoil, order the Kingston FURY Impact 2 x 32 GB DDR5 Kit (KF556S40IBK2-64), with a frequency of 5600MT/s and a CAS latency of 40, either directly from Kingston's website or from Ebuyer. The Samsung 990 PRO is still the best PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 drive, at least on paper, so get 2 of those in 1 TB capacities, or optionally 2 TB. When configuring the Recoil, keep the 8 GB DDR5 RAM, but remove the 1st M.2 SSD drive and operating system to save some money, totaling instead to £2,119.17 ex. VAT, or £2,543.00 inc. VAT.

Let me know where you want to go from here. I suspect that if you are okay with paying £2,632.91 inc. VAT from Scan, then paying £2,786.00 inc. VAT from PC Specialist is not much of a stretch.

[BennyG]

Normally, audio workstations do not come with GPUs because they are not needed for any part of the music production workflow. If you want a NVIDIA GPU with 16GB of GDDR6 VRAM, that leaves you with exactly one option, the GeForce RTX 4090...

Weirdly enough, it seems like that the PC Specialist pages seems to get updated quite often, and there are now two Ionico models here and here, which both allow you to configure with a GeForce RTX 3080ti (also listed on their site as a 16GB card). So I guess there are other options to bring down the overall costs and still have enough VRAM for the AI stuff.

Thank you for the suggestions about buying RAM and HD separately, I hadn't even considered that route as a cost-saving device, but it seems there are many ways to pinch a few pennies here and there. Really appreciate all the effort you've put in here.

I probably will contact Scan again, and see if there is any further progress on the Win 11 issues, but if a few more weeks pass by with no update, I will definitely be considering taking this route. I'm not in any huge rush as I've just booked a couple of gigs and that's not a good time to be switching systems, but I'll definitely be revisiting this thread and following your advice once I've got those out of the way.

[FranklyFlawless]

Weirdly enough, it seems like that the PC Specialist pages seems to get updated quite often, and there are now two Ionico models here and here, which both allow you to configure with a GeForce RTX 3080ti (also listed on their site as a 16GB card). So I guess there are other options to bring down the overall costs and still have enough VRAM for the AI stuff.

Sure, if you are comfortable with hardware from one or two generations ago. At that point, you may as well consider the Scan content creation laptop again, although it is evidently clear their price is no longer competitive.

Also, the Ionico II maxes out with the Intel Core i7-11800H and GeForce RTX 3080. While the GeForce RTX 3080 does have 16 GB of GDDR6 VRAM, the configuration itself does not have an i9 as per your criteria. The Ionico III, when configured similarily to the Recoil, totals to £2,048.33 ex. VAT, or £2,458.00 inc. VAT, saving you £328 for last-gen hardware. The Recoil VI, which is the previous generation of the current one, also has similar hardware to the Ionico III. Configuring it like the current Recoil totals £2,113.33 ex. VAT, or £2,536.00 inc. VAT, which is £250 savings for last-gen hardware.

Both the Ionico models and the last-gen Recoil offer Windows 10, which makes sense since that was the original operating system they came with back then. You may want to consider paying for the Windows 10 OEM license.

Note that the previous RAM and SSD recommendations are meant exactly for the current Recoil. Older hardware, like the Intel Core i9-12900H, cap at DDR5 4800 MT/s. If need be, I can research RAM for it to suggest for maximum performance, and to save money as well.

Thank you for the suggestions about buying RAM and HD separately, I hadn't even considered that route as a cost-saving device, but it seems there are many ways to pinch a few pennies here and there. Really appreciate all the effort you've put in here.

It only works when laptops are user-servicable. Only a handful of manufacturers now provide that option to the consumer. Other manufacturers usually solder their RAM, some use non-standard M.2 keys for their SSDs, or use their own proprietary SSDs, to limit your hardware options.

Clevo laptops are notable for having replaceable GPUs, but doing so in practice is difficult because that changes the total power draw, requiring you to upgrade your power supply as well. It is also hard to find laptop GPUs for replacement in the first place.

I probably will contact Scan again, and see if there is any further progress on the Win 11 issues, but if a few more weeks pass by with no update, I will definitely be considering taking this route. I'm not in any huge rush as I've just booked a couple of gigs and that's not a good time to be switching systems, but I'll definitely be revisiting this thread and following your advice once I've got those out of the way.

Alright, keep us informed of any news from Scan. Even if the Windows 11 battery monitoring issue is fixed and Scan does relist their laptops, at least you have other price points to compare now, and other ways to save money.

[RobGee]

I am currently running a Scan laptop and have been looking at replacing mine in the future. I noticed their laptops had been removed from their website, nice to finally know why.

[sQeetz]

Are there Wintel Laptops available today which can't be used a toaster under load? Just asking.....

[FranklyFlawless]

Are there Wintel Laptops available today which can't be used a toaster under load? Just asking.....

Yes, but usually discrete GPUs are omitted to reduce power consumption and the need for cooling.

[BONES]

Are there Wintel Laptops available today which can't be used a toaster under load? Just asking.....

No, you're just being a dickhead. In my experience, Apple had a lot more trouble cooling their laptops than most PC vendors. I've owned and/or used at least 18 laptops over the past 20 years or so and never had even the tiniest problem with cooling, doing more demanding things than realtime audio.

OTOH, KMFDM have two MB Pros set up on stage because they have problems with them overheating so badly they lock-up, so one is playing and the other is on stand-by. And if you want to suggest that it was older Intel MBs, then you'll need to explain why you or anyone else would have put up with such inferior performance for the 20 years or so Apple used Intel processors.

Anyway, my new laptop is finally on its way. I originally ordered it in January but Asus haven't had stock for 6 months or so. I can only assume they have to compete with car manufacturers for the second screen, which is the most bespoke part of the machine. I got sick of waiting for Asus so I bought one from eBay. She said it's brand new but I've lost half the warranty so it must have been sitting around for a while. She matched Amazon's price, so I'm saving around $800 over the full retail price. And there'll definitely be no cooling issues with this little beauty -

When you open the lid, it raises the second screen and allows masses of airflow. And my experience with Iris Xe graphics is that I don't really need a discrete graphics card any more, which saved me a lot of money on the config.

[revvy]

In my experience , Apple had a lot more trouble cooling their laptops than most PC vendors.

Which Apple laptops have you had experiences of cooling problems with?