KVR Audio

Vocalpoint Studios · Post by **Vocalpoint Studios** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:27 pm

mi-os wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:24 pmSince you don't mind the issue discussed here, please leave this thread. Thanks.

Sure thing.

Continued success with your legal challenges.

VP

mixyguy2 · Post by **mixyguy2** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:25 pm

This is one of various reasons why I hate the whole "you have to install it from our little installer thingy" crap, which sadly seems to be the growing trend. I paid for a copy of the software, just GIVE me the damn thing in a zip or exe file (along with a "key" or other magical number needed to install if you must) and piss off. Then I have it for as long as I like, as I should. When I BUY a piece of software, I'm supposed to have it forever, not only as long as the company feels like letting me have it. It's not a subscription. The whole thing is just asinine.

I bought Kontakt reluctantly even though it's a POS because there were a lot of things that require it that I wanted to use. Now I have them. It'll be a cold day in hell when I upgrade or they ever get more money from me.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:58 pm

If people think it’s illegal, why don’t they just call the police and get on with it.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:05 pm

the police would be a waste of resources(they won't help prolly)
a free lawyer will not take this

-someone needs to take it to court,
prolly in Germany
It would be flippin' expensive
-and how is that recovered for any party

pekbro · Post by **pekbro** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:17 pm

Don't forget that generally, if you lose, you would likely be held liable for NI's legal costs as well.

donkey tugger · Post by **donkey tugger** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:32 pm

This is an interesting (and thorough..) analysis which suggests that a 'sales' contract between a vendor and a consumer for digital services does not make it incumbent on the vendor to provide support under current EU law; this being necessary only in a separate 'service contract';

https://www.jipitec.eu/issues/jipitec-8-1-2017/4530

It does seem that there would be unlikely to be any legal redress in this situation, the goods being bought to use 'as is', with no promise of future support.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:07 pm

that's probably so in my opinion,
but I don't really know

it's spoken reasonably

the product is not as is,
'Service Center' was implemented at that time,
and now no longer is

donkey tugger · Post by **donkey tugger** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:21 pm

nix808 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:07 pm that's probably so in my opinion,
but I don't really know

it's spoken reasonably

the product is not as is,
'Service Center' was implemented at that time,
and now no longer is

What I meant by 'as is', is that the product is sold as being functional at the point of purchase, but without an explicit service contract there is no onus on the vendor to continue support over the longer term.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:04 pm

thanks

wvshpr · Post by **wvshpr** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:54 pm

donkey tugger wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:32 pm This is an interesting (and thorough..) analysis which suggests that a 'sales' contract between a vendor and a consumer for digital services does not make it incumbent on the vendor to provide support under current EU law; this being necessary only in a separate 'service contract';

https://www.jipitec.eu/issues/jipitec-8-1-2017/4530

It does seem that there would be unlikely to be any legal redress in this situation, the goods being bought to use 'as is', with no promise of future support.

Nobody here cares about support. They took away our licenses and THAT is illegal.

I paid for Pro-53, Vokator, Spectral Delay, Reaktor 4, Battery 2 and Kontakt 2 and they don't allow me to activate it any longer.

My solution for this issue? f**k NI and I won't buy from this shitty fuckfest of a company anymore.

donkey tugger · Post by **donkey tugger** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:14 am

wvshpr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:54 pm
donkey tugger wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:32 pm This is an interesting (and thorough..) analysis which suggests that a 'sales' contract between a vendor and a consumer for digital services does not make it incumbent on the vendor to provide support under current EU law; this being necessary only in a separate 'service contract';

https://www.jipitec.eu/issues/jipitec-8-1-2017/4530

It does seem that there would be unlikely to be any legal redress in this situation, the goods being bought to use 'as is', with no promise of future support.
Nobody here cares about support. They took away our licenses and THAT is illegal.

I paid for Pro-53, Vokator, Spectral Delay, Reaktor 4, Battery 2 and Kontakt 2 and they don't allow me to activate it any longer.

My solution for this issue? f**k NI and I won't buy from this shitty fuckfest of a company anymore.

Don't shoot the messenger, just setting out what appears to be the legal position. Beyond the statutory 2 year EU guarantee;

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/d ... dex_en.htm

..without a specific service contract there appears to be no avenue for enforcement as far as I can see, and therefore whatever your opinion of NI's conduct, it doesn't seem to be illegal.

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:21 am

Vocalpoint Studios wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:51 pm "The better question to ask is, if illegal, what are you going to do about it?"

Absolutely, it would be in the interest of all of us. I'd love to see consumer protection updated so that a DRM-free version has to be provided the moment a vendor decides that they want to turn off the activation servers or goes out of business. If vendors were forced to factor this in right at the start of development, implementation would be much easier than after the fact. And we'd all be able to continue using the software we own, provided we have an OS that it can run on.

The real issue at the moment is that there is a lack of foresight on the part of developers, and retrofitting the software to strip out the DRM is going to be a lot harder that designing with that capability in mind from the start. Everyone wins this way - the vendors get their DRM for the lifecycle of the product, and consumers don't have to worry about software they rely on suddenly going poof and disappearing.

Tbh, to me it seems so obvious that this is how it should be that I'm surprised it isn't that way already.

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:22 am

zerocrossing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:58 pm If people think it’s illegal, why don’t they just call the police and get on with it.

Because that's not how it works, you'd need a lawyer, not a police officer.

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:27 am

donkey tugger wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:14 am Don't shoot the messenger, just setting out what appears to be the legal position. Beyond the statutory 2 year EU guarantee;

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/d ... dex_en.htm

..without a specific service contract there appears to be no avenue for enforcement as far as I can see, and therefore whatever your opinion of NI's conduct, it doesn't seem to be illegal.

That's a guarantee that allows you to receive compensation if the product doesn't work as specified/breaks due to a design flaw. The issue here is breach of contract, which isn't covered by the guarantee.

cnt · Post by **cnt** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:46 am

Hm... but can't you load old Battery banks into later versions of Battery?
At least that is what I remember from Battery 1 and 2.
Isn't Vokator and Battery 2 using only serial numbers?

If it really is a problem that you need to solve to get going remixing your old stuff:
1. Save your banks from your old machine. Upgrade to Battery 4 on your new machine and load your old banks into your projects.

or

2. If you know how to, it IS possible to use the very-old NI software on a new machine without having to use online registration. Since you still own a license, HOW you install the software is only a technical thing, as long as you stick to the license agreement (ie only using the software on max 2 computers at the same time).

Legality of stopping activation of older products? (Native Instruments)