Instruments with or without built-in effects?

[_leras]

I will make the sound as best I can upfront and sometimes try many iterations. Fact is that I will EQ sounds when mixing, either directly, or when on a bus. A good EQ can have different shapes than the filters on the synth, and can also be more flexible if more vanilla.

But you shouldn't need that if you've spent so much time on the sound in the first place. It should just drop into your mix and be perfect, or close to it. Those fancy EQs are for recorded sounds, things you can't directly control the timbre of, that you have to beat into shape to get to fit into your mix. If you have to do that with your synths, then you're using the wrong f**king sound, pure and simple.

Nah.... A sound can be perfect on its own but you might need to do different things in the mix.

If a sound is prominent you maybe want to keep it as it is and let it take the full space, but at other times you may want to roll off some low end to give the bass more space, or roll off some high end to allow other bright sounds to take that top end.

Sometimes a sound is just a layer, or some pad, it may be the perfect sounds, but you might want to carve out huge chunks of the sound so that the main sound in the mix isn't fighting with it.

It really depends. There's no answer for everything. Arrangement also makes a huge difference.

A synth sound is one part, stuff outside the synth like fx is at least half of my sound design, and then sculpting the sound for the mix is an important part again.

I try to play a lot with layers, textures and ambience changes, which can make mixing more tricky. It could be argued I could lose elements and have simpler mixes... but I think it all helps me elevate the final tracks.

[BONES]

Honestly, I have you on ignore and I stupidly read a post where you were quoted and now I’m stuck in this dumb conversation.

Then perhaps you don't realise just how often we agree on things these days?

Why is this true of synths, but not of recordings?

I believe I explained that well enough with the example of a kick drum sound.

By your same logic, if you have to EQ that recorded thing to fit your mix, then you recorded it badly, pure and simple.

That doesn't follow at all. e.g. I can't change how I sing so that it fits into the mix properly. My larynx doesn't have the ability to attenuate everything below 120Hz and boost frequencies above 1.5kHz, for example, so I need to use effects on it to achieve that. OTOH, a synth has everything you need to do that kind of thing, built right into the signal path.

Go re-mic that kick drum until it sounds the way you wanted.

The problem here, of course, is that it wasn't me who captured the kick sample, I'm just the poor schmuck who has to make it work in my mix. All I can do is choose from the available samples, so that I am at least in the ballpark before I get started. But you know all that, you're just being a dick.

I EQ damn near everything I ever mic up.

Exactly, because you need to. You shouldn't have to do that with synths, because you have so much more control over the timbre from inside the instrument.

I guess my point in the end is, EQ is a choice. like any other effect.

Of course it is but not all choices are equally valid in every situation and I think we get a lot of this received wisdom from experts who have never stopped to question why they do the same things when they are working entirely ITB that they'd be doing in a full physical studio with live instruments.

some great records have hiss and bleed

But that's not what makes them great.

"if you're EQing your synths, it's because you suck at synths."

That's not the point I was making but, of course, everyone has to take everything personally. It's more that people don't think about why they are doing what they do. I watched a few YT vids of this dickhead showing people how to do things for EBM and he was needlessly adding multiple compressors in his fx chain on a synth patch with all the envelope sustains at maximum. i.e. He was compressing a signal multiple times that had absolutely zero dynamics anyway. But you look at the comments and everybody is all over it, like this idiot actually has the first f**king clue, when he very clearly does not. He puts a compressor on because that's what you do, even if turning up the level would have exactly the same result. That just moronic.

It's just another tool in the toolbox that we use to change the color of a sound... like it even f**king matters.

It sure as hell f**king matters to me, as it's allowed me to improve the quality of my work. I used to use EQ on absolutely everything because, like an unquestioning idiot, I blindly accepted that that was how you did things. Then I found another way of working that made everything better. Maybe you're not interested in doing batter work or, more likely, you are simply too hidebound to accept that you might not be doing things the best way? I can but tell you of my own experience.

I get it, you have have said previously that you surf presets and hardly spend any time on sound design, as such I also get that the idea that you lack the experience to see exactly what an EQ which is just a set of filters can do for sound design

Yeah, that's right, 43 years of working with synths and I've learned nothing. Don't make me f**king laugh. Think about what you've said - you just said that because I get the job done so much more efficiently than you, that it means I don't gain the deep understanding that you think you have. It never occurs to you that the reason I can spend so little time on patching synths is because I am much, much better at it than you, does it?

When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail, but many of us find sound design important enough and are skilled enough to spend more than 1-2% of our time with Synths on sound design as you have said you do. For us we want and enjoy a full tool box

You don't even know what sound design is. All you are talking about is patching synths, a job most professionals don't waste their time doing for themselves. Sound design is a far broader discipline, the term has just been co-opted by jumped-up nobodies who want to feel important.

[solar28]

Yet another classic Bones abuse thread. Now he's taking on multiple people simultaneously with his bullying and incompetent arguments. A failed artist who can't sing lectures everyone about his superiority. I don't know why anyone engages him. Sometimes, while walking I'll step on dog shit. I wipe it off my shoes asap and move on with my day. I don't try to have a discussion with it.

[BONES]

What if I want to use more bands or a different order than 2nd to 4th (The most common in synths)? Or to be able to switch between relative and constant Q? Or use special bell types like flat-top or sword? Or use elliptical filters? Or use Tilt/Bezier FIR EQs? Or allpass filters?

In that case you are concentrating on the process, not the result, and you'll probably do shit work anyway.

There's always at least one thing that needs to be adjusted in a way which can't be done with built-in EQs.

Not in my experience, I can always get the synth to do what I need it to without that kind of kludge. And it's not even hard, you just need to look at things differently, be more focused on the result and less on the process. Do things when you need to do them, not just because that's how it's always been done or how you saw someone doing it on a YT video or how you were taught on a sound engineering course.

...but not all of them. And Dune's six EQ bands (with highpass/lowpass already being included) is simply not enough for me.

Then you need to learn how to do things better. Stop using your tools as a crutch.

Nah.... A sound can be perfect on its own but you might need to do different things in the mix.

So adjust it some more to make it work. That's where I spend most of my time in patching synths. Good sounds aren't that hard and don't have to be perfect, for exactly the reason you suggest. Better to have some rough starting points you can tailor to each situation.

If a sound is prominent you maybe want to keep it as it is and let it take the full space, but at other times you may want to roll off some low end to give the bass more space, or roll off some high end to allow other bright sounds to take that top end.

Exactly. If we are talking about in different songs, then you tailor it to each one. If we are talking about different passages within the same song, that's what automation is for. Much tidier to automate the synth than an EQ.

Sometimes a sound is just a layer, or some pad, it may be the perfect sounds, but you might want to carve out huge chunks of the sound so that the main sound in the mix isn't fighting with it.

So you find a sound that doesn't clash. If it's just some layer filling out a mix, it won't matter.

A synth sound is one part, stuff outside the synth like fx is at least half of my sound design, and then sculpting the sound for the mix is an important part again.

For me it is all part of a single process and it is often easier to go right back to the start, even in the middle of a mix, and tweak something fundamental, rather than trying to paper over a problem with FX.

I try to play a lot with layers, textures and ambience changes, which can make mixing more tricky. It could be argued I could lose elements and have simpler mixes... but I think it all helps me elevate the final tracks.

I'm ruthless with culling tracks that aren't pulling their weight, especially with covers. Some of the MIDI files I start with have 15 or more instrument tracks and I can always cull it down to 7 or 8, just by combining parts and finding better patches. The best ones I can get down to 4 or 5. I mean, if a three piece band can get up on stage and play a song, I shouldn't need 10 tracks to recreate it in Studio One.

[solar28]

It continues. More self superiority and being utterly demeaning to others … Bones is special. Who targets someone saying the result of their work is shit, then tries to act like a daddy to them? Breathtaking.

[mixyguy2]

Believe it or not, not everyone gets brainlock from having lots of options.

Never said they did. You missed the point.

[_leras]

It continues. More self superiority and being utterly demeaning to others … Bones is special. Who targets someone saying the result of their work is shit, then tries to act like a daddy to them? Breathtaking.

I read it more as sharing a strong opinion.

Perfectly valid to suggest things like fix a sound at source instead of polish it up with effects.

Of course, as with everything, there's nuance, and different approaches for different things. You need to decide what you want to take from things and don't even need to agree with everything someone else does.

[WackyZoundz]

In that case you are concentrating on the process, not the result, and you'll probably do shit work anyway.

"Change the process, change the outcome" - Mick Gordon

That's what I focus on. The outcome, the sound. And different filters sound different. Please don't tell me there is no difference. I can clearly hear how different it sounds if I pull out the low frequencies in the side signal after applying a chorus (or if I use multi-band processing to only apply chorus from a given frequency upwards). How many synths come with a M/S EQ? AND feature the filter type and order I want (to create the sound I have in mind)? Not a single one. Because no synth has all features. I refuse to blindly accept the direct output of a synth if I can change it. I don't see the point. You follow the purist approach which is fine by itself but that's not how I do things. I want my own sound.

Not in my experience, I can always get the synth to do what I need it to without that kind of kludge.

Which synth do you use then? Don't say Dune because it's technically not possible to do the things I want with Dune alone, I already pointed that out. Which synth has all (!) effect features?

And it's not even hard, you just need to look at things differently, be more focused on the result and less on the process. Do things when you need to do them, not just because that's how it's always been done or how you saw someone doing it on a YT video or how you were taught on a sound engineering course.

That's exactly what I do. It's you who follows that purist approach which can be found in plenty of books and courses.

[stoopicus]

Believe it or not, not everyone gets brainlock from having lots of options.

Never said they did. You missed the point.

The way I read it was that you were describing your analysis paralysis and extrapolating it to be a general case. If that is mistaken and you were only describing your own preferences then I apologize.

[BONES]

And different filters sound different. Please don't tell me there is no difference. I can clearly hear how different it sounds if I pull out the low frequencies in the side signal after applying a chorus (or if I use multi-band processing to only apply chorus from a given frequency upwards).

First of all, different for the sake of different means nothing. Different needs to be better or what's the point? And most of the time you can do just as good a job, in less time, by keeping things simple. Secondly, most of the time shit like that won't make a difference in the context of your mix, or not sufficient difference to make it worth the hassle.

How many synths come with a M/S EQ?

Who gives a f**k? M/S processing is mostly for mixes and mastering, you should only really be using it on instrument channels where it was recorded that way. More to the point, though, how many great records have been made without it? The answer is almost all of them. M/S processing is useful for doing specific things with aspects of your stereo image but most of the time it's not that useful. Again, different doesn't automatically mean better and there are usually easier ways to achieve similar results. It's just another trendy thing that everyone was into for 5 minutes before moving on.

AND feature the filter type and order I want (to create the sound I have in mind)? Not a single one. Because no synth has all features.

Thank f**k! And thank f**k we don't need every single feature in every single part of every single channel or we'd never get anything done. You choose the instrument with the features you need and pretty much all of them have enough for 90% of the sounds any of us are likely to need.

I refuse to blindly accept the direct output of a synth if I can change it.

Then you're just another clueless idiot.

I don't see the point.

I imagine that's because you lack the skill and/or talent to get the sound you want out of your instruments. You're carrying on as though all this useless shit is actually going to allow you to make good music.

I'm afraid that it is not. The Beatles, for example, only had a stereo tape machine to record their first two albums - it all had to be played in at once. It was basically a live recording. And for the rest of the Beatles time, Abbey Road Studio never had more than an 8-track set-up. Do you think you could work with only 8 channels, with only two insert fx slots? Sounds to me like you couldn't. And I think that's kind of the problem - you're used to just piling shit on top of shit because working ITB has virtually no limits, so you've never had to think about the best way of doing things.

You follow the purist approach which is fine by itself but that's not how I do things. I want my own sound.

Which, I'm thinking, will sound just like everybody else. Do you have any examples you can point us to? Maybe you'll surprise us all.

Which synth do you use then?

Whichever one I feel will get the job done with the least amount of effort. I don't use DUNE much, I don't like the workflow at all.

Which synth has all (!) effect features?

None that I would want to use.

That's exactly what I do.

Everything you have written here would suggest that is not the case at all. After all, if you had any results worth sharing, surely you'd have a link to them in your signature?

[swilow11]

Yeah but imagine if the Beatles had had Phase Plant

[El°HYM]

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky
Imagine all the people
Livin' for today
Ah
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace
You
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[whyterabbyt]

[WackyZoundz]

First of all, different for the sake of different means nothing.

I feel sorry for you because you're obviously not able to hear the difference between a 1st and 8th order lowpass or highpass filter. Or a IIR or FIR filter. But that is your problem, not mine. I can hear the difference.

And most of the time you can do just as good a job, in less time, by keeping things simple.

I don't care. I want my sound and my sound can't be created without plenty of additional processing. Not with the largest and most complex modular synth. Even if you can route everything freely there is still the problem of not having all effects included I need.

Secondly, most of the time shit like that won't make a difference in the context of your mix, or not sufficient difference to make it worth the hassle.

Again - you can't hear it but I can. Your hearing damage is your problem, not mine.

Who gives a f**k?

Me because it's my sound, not yours. I'm not aiming at a purist synth sound like you. I'm not aiming at a raw mix either. I never used a single preset in my life and the times I used built-in effects is so low I can count them with all my fingers. I don't care for "Oh yeah, that's a Dune" or "Oh yeah, that's a Moog". I want my own sound, not those limited results synths give me on their own.

and pretty much all of them have enough for 90% of the sounds any of us are likely to need.

Not even 40 % in my case. And I wouldn't be happy with 90 % either. I want 100 %. I want my sound.

M/S processing is mostly for mixes and mastering

Says who? And why should I care? It's funny how you contradict yourself after that part of you criticising that people do something because it's considered to be normal or common, just to do the same exact thing one comment later.

And I wasn't even talking about mixing or mastering yet, just basic sound design. I use things like multi-band or pre-emphasis/de-emphasis processing quite often in combination with special effects. That's how my sound is created. Which is not possible with any built-in effects.

More to the point, though, how many great records have been made without it?

Another bogus argument. You can say the same about synths in general. So why don't you just use real instruments then? Plenty of good records have been made before synths even existed...

M/S processing is useful for doing specific things with aspects of your stereo image but most of the time it's not that useful.

I find it very useful when it comes to controlling the frequency-dependent stereo width of a special effect like chorus.

and there are usually easier ways to achieve similar results.

I want my own particular sound, not something that sounds kind-of similar (which doesn't sound similar to me at all, just to you).

It's just another trendy thing that everyone was into for 5 minutes before moving on.

I never cared about trends. I only care for functions which enable me to create that particular sound I have in mind. Which isn't possible with built-in effects. And that's just sound design, I'm not talking about mixing or mastering yet which are two different cans of worms.

Then you're just another clueless idiot.

Well, thanks for that. I tried to have a respectful and serious discussion with you based on logical arguments, but all you do is throwing bogus arguments and insults at me. It's pointless to talk to you about anything. Welcome to my block list.

[WackyZoundz]

Yet another classic Bones abuse thread. Now he's taking on multiple people simultaneously with his bullying and incompetent arguments. A failed artist who can't sing lectures everyone about his superiority. I don't know why anyone engages him. Sometimes, while walking I'll step on dog shit. I wipe it off my shoes asap and move on with my day. I don't try to have a discussion with it.

Sadly you're right. But the worst part is the lack of moderation. Such trolls should get thrown out of the forum but nothing happens. Which is one of the reasons why I would never use the KVR marketplace. Never trust a site without moderation.