Question About "Tickling" the Red

[ChiroVette]

Okay, so I have been using Tracktion for creating backing tracks for several years. I am a very simplistic user, not a content creator or a composer. So I use the free version. Anyway, I know that for my Fractal FM9, most people agree that "tickling the red" is fine, so long as you're not constantly clipping. Same with all my other guitar gear.

I was curious if this was the same for a DAW like Tracktion?

For an example, I am working on a backing track for Comfortably Numb, and every once in a while, I get a clip light for literally just a fraction of a second. More than 99% of the time, the master fader light stay medium to high in the yellow.

Now, up until today, I have been mostly lowering either the master fader by a few db's or some of the louder tracks using the "clip gain" for each track. But this morning, I got to thinking. Is this really necessary, or am I just needlessly worrying?

I'm not hearing any distortion or anything, and as I said, it's a once in a while thing.

tldr: How much should I care about the meters every so often hitting the red for just a microsecond before rendering the audio?

[dysjoint]

You won't hear distortion inside Waveform, or any daw, from going into the red. However, when you render that signal to a file that is 24 bit, the parts that are over zero are cut off (clipped) and that creates the distortion.
This is only a quick answer, but you should care about going over zero when rendering

[ChiroVette]

You won't hear distortion inside Waveform, or any daw, from going into the red. However, when you render that signal to a file that is 24 bit, the parts that are over zero are cut off (clipped) and that creates the distortion.
This is only a quick answer, but you should care about going over zero when rendering

Thanks for the response. Can you clarify a little? Are you saying that optimally I should make sure that the meters NEVER even touch the red while listening or when I render to a wave file there will be milliseconds of distortion in the final wave file?

[Maarid]

it is very difficult to understand what exactly causes micro-bursts in you, you did not give accurate information about what you are working with and how, if jumps appear during the recording of a connected guitar, you need to look towards the wires, something is punching somewhere, it is very rare to meet such a thing, it is disappointing. If you are using an audio clip and you are shooting only at the master, then the composition is incorrectly mixed at this point. If it hits both the master and the track fader on the same track, the problem area is recorded, cut out this fragment and make the piece quieter. (The "\" button)
As mentioned above, the higher the bit depth, the more likely there is no clipping on the recording, in 32 bits the overload is almost not felt and is calmly treated with a limiter to normal sound without distortion.

[ChiroVette]

it is very difficult to understand what exactly causes micro-bursts in you, you did not give accurate information about what you are working with and how, if jumps appear during the recording of a connected guitar, you need to look towards the wires, something is punching somewhere, it is very rare to meet such a thing, it is disappointing. If you are using an audio clip and you are shooting only at the master, then the composition is incorrectly mixed at this point. If it hits both the master and the track fader on the same track, the problem area is recorded, cut out this fragment and make the piece quieter. (The "\" button)
As mentioned above, the higher the bit depth, the more likely there is no clipping on the recording, in 32 bits the overload is almost not felt and is calmly treated with a limiter to normal sound without distortion.

This is not live recording or even "track creation". I am creating backing tracks from stems purchased from content creators, such as Karaoke-Versions.com. I am not recording my guitar or voice for these particular backing tracks. I simply download them, dump them into Tracktion, set all the levels, and render them.

So, as I said, using Comfortably Numb as an example, I downloaded all the individual tracks I purchased, imported them into Tracktion, and with the master fader at its default position of -3db and the clip gain and faders for the individual tracks all at 0db, most of the time (99% of the time) there is no clipping, and the master fader lights (left and right) are mostly stay high in the green and midway in the yellow.

Also, I have noted that the individual tracks aren't clipping, only the master fader, and even that only for like a millisecond and very infrequently in the song, like maybe less than 1% of the time.

So I am also wondering if the individual track indicators aren't clipping at all, is it the "sum of all the tracks" that create a millisecond of "red" in the master fader indicators?

As I said, I am not a composer or content creator, so my usage of Tracktion is extremely simple.

Edit: Note that I can get rid of even the occasional millseconds of clipping by either lowering the master fader by a db or two, or by just dropping all the individual tracks down by a db or two, either at the track fader or using the clip gain, but so far, I haven't bothered doing it, because I thought the occasional "red light" was all right.

[dysjoint]

Yes, summing two waveforms together is often the spot to watch. Mixing is a vast and complex topic that you'll need toook into. However, in analogue, occasional peaks may be ok, or even desirable, but in digital it should be strictly controlled. Zero db in digital 24 bit waveform is like a hard ceiling. Nothing exists above it. (Note that daws operate in 'floating point' which allows you to go over without distortion. This is not true for a rendered 24 bit file)

[Maarid]

Mixing is a rather complicated process, which will be difficult to explain here in a few words. I can only suggest a way that I would use myself. First, you need to find the moment of the burst, loop it, then put on the master equalizer or any frequency visualizer convenient to you (for example Voxengo Span), it will allow you to visually find the frequency range that goes higher when summing up. Then it is more difficult, you need to determine which of the tracks uses this range and will not lose quality if you turn it down at this frequency, experiment with several tracks, listen carefully to see if your introduction spoils the scale and the feeling of the composition.
In fact, if you just bring it together and apart from the visual clap, nothing bothers you by ear. Do not worry, using a clipper is quite a normal practice, put a good clipper on the master and do not add anything to its settings (for example, PeakEater), if you do not turn anything in it, but leave it just on the master, then it will not change anything, except for the moment when the recording suddenly jumps, it just it will stop equalizing to the total volume.
Also, I would like to simplify your life and tell you, after the clipper, you should use an equalizer, preferably a good one, necessarily in mid-side mode. You should remove all side information from the basses completely, approximately up to 80 Hertz (You can do more, at least up to 500, focusing on the feeling). Then, in the same way, focusing on the feeling, you should simultaneously make two filters at 200 and 2000 Hertz quieter in stereo mode, moving the sound from the center of the head to the foreground in front of the listener, but try at the same time so that the sound does not change its consistency.

Безымянный.png

Somehow this is how it will look on the built-in 8 channel equalizer. Just keep in mind that I made changes at the same time JUST to demonstrate to you, the built-in equalizer is capable of working only in one specific mode and you will have to use it twice - in side mode to remove the bass and the second in stereo mode to play with the phantom center.
(From the free ones, I can recommend, for example, ZL Equalizer)
I offer this information to you as a hint, one of the ways, of which there are many millions, is not a guide to action, an attempt to simplify your start in learning information.
I wish you bright emotions from new victories in life

Added: By the way, I remembered, a great free equalizer for the master channel, with great sound and all the necessary tools to start with - this Analog Obsession N492ME

[RunBeerRun]

I always bring my audio tracks into the red. I've done it since I was recording onto tapes.

[Watchful]

I think you're experiencing a sum problem: individually, each track is fine...but when all are played together, they're starting to tap the red. If you have five pints of beer half-filled, you're safe from spilling; if you pour all five pints into a quart-sized container, you will have spillage.

If it happens at a consistent point in the project, figure out which instrument is likely causing it and put in a compressor on that track. You can test your guess by muting that track just at that point--if the red goes away, you found your most likely culprit.

If it's happening at random points, a compressor or (even better) a limiter in the master bus should squish down that level before it hits red.

As Maarid and Dysjoint pointed out, there's a difference between mixing and mastering. In mixing, you probably won't hear much if you're just tapping the red on a track or two, here and there. But if mastering...well, you might very well be disappointed with the results if the red is on the master track.

It's always safe to master at lower outputs a bit; you can always turn the volume up on playback.

[ChiroVette]

Thanks for all the answers!

Just to be clear, you guys are all talking waaaaaaay over my head. Not a bad thing. I may have to come back to this thread, particularly Maarid's post, since I literally understand like 10% of what I'm reading. At least on any sort of a functional level. I kind of, sort of get it theoretically. Truth be told, I have to be honest and say that I think for the moment at least, I am just going to live with whatever aural vagaries arise from the occasional "tickling of the red" that literally lasts only a millisecond.

Don't get me wrong, this is all excellent info, that if I get a lot smarter, will help me greatly.

But this is way more than I want to even try to assimilate at the moment. I just want to keep creating my backing tracks for performance and practice. I mean, that's it. I tried an experiment after I created this thread, and got a little in the weeds with the responses. I noted using one song, the exact time when clipping occurred in Tracktion, and listened to the .wav file I rendered from that file, paying close attention to where Tracktion said it clipped. You know what? I can't hear any auditory artifacts even on the .wav files I render. I even wrote down the exact moments of clipping in Tracktion, and when listening back.

Honestly, I am not ready for all this information. I just wanted a simple yes or no, to whether or not I was harming my wave file in any meaningful way that either myself or my audience might find distasteful. I really just wanted to know one thing: Should I ignore the occasional microsecond clipping, or should I just lower the faders or clip gain?

LMAO I feel like you guys are offering me an introduction to a doctoral course on Tracktion, which is cool and all, but not what I was looking for.

Seriously, thanks again for all the answers. I will try to come back to this and study the information here. It is great stuff, just not what I'm looking for with my uber-simplistic question.

[Watchful]

Well, no problem. If you want a one-word answer, it would be "no." If you're not hearing anything bad happening, you're good to go.

If you want a "no, but..." answer, you could try rendering the same project again--with lower fader values--and see if you can hear a difference between the two.

And it's not too difficult to figure all this stuff out: come back in a month or two, and something Dysjoint said will become obvious to you; and in another two weeks, a part of Maarid's information will become clear. That's how it always works.

Just keep having fun, like you're doing, and everything else will follow!

[Maarid]

Well, I'll try to simplify it to the initial level as much as I can.
YES, it's bad, NO, you can't leave it like that. First of all, you need to understand that each listener is an individual listening device, respectively, the more assumptions and errors you leave in the final version of your sound, the more listeners will receive artifacts by ear. YOU ARE OBLIGED to bring the final version to a volume level not exceeding 0, in fact, for this I suggest that you use a clipper without additional settings, which will simply cut off bursts exceeding zero.
Also, you must understand that by simply removing all the volume, you will make the whole song quieter, and now imagine that while listening to the tracks in the playlist, you suddenly come across a track that is barely audible, what percentage do you think your potential listeners will just make the equipment louder, and not switch your track further? The volume of your track MUST necessarily be within normal hearing range, this is at least just a manifestation of admiration for your listeners. The volume of the track is calculated by the RMS parameter, in any case you will have to study it all.
And yes, all these tricks do not affect the composition itself or the interest of the music in any way, these are industry standards, the presence of which is mandatory for comfortable listening to your music.

[bk]

Why not just put a brick wall limiter on your master output before you render? Set the ceiling to something slightly less than 0dBFS and then don't worry. The output won't exceed the ceiling you set. There are a number of free plugin limiters available that will do this, and are undetectable, to my ears, if they are only doing a dB or 2 of limiting.

Here's one I have personally used that works very well:
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/loudma ... omas-mundt

[ChiroVette]

Well, no problem. If you want a one-word answer, it would be "no." If you're not hearing anything bad happening, you're good to go.

I completely agree with this. I am also well aware that it is easy to just cherry-pick the answer you're looking for, like I was looking for this one, so I am trying not to do that. More on that in a sec.

If you want a "no, but..." answer, you could try rendering the same project again--with lower fader values--and see if you can hear a difference between the two.

I did exactly that. I had Tracktion and the final rendered backing-track video up, with good quality over-ear Sennheiser headphones, listening not only to the overall tracks in both Tracktion and in that final video; but I also took note of exactly to the microsecond where the un-rendered file was clipping in Tracktion, and really trying to hear any sort of aural artifacts and distortion in both the rendered .wav file and in the final video.

I literally heard nothing. Not even so much as a blip, dropoff, change in volume, loss of information, or distortion. It sounds great.

The thing is that I am always the one whinging and bitching about anything off in my sound, sometimes overthinking my live performances, amp-modeling, effects, and everything else coming out of my guitar. I can say for an absolute certainty that if I can't here anything wrong in those millisecond "spikes" in Tracktion, I seriously doubt anyone in my audiences will. Maybe some doctoral level sound engineer would use highly sophisticated measuring devices and come up with something wrong, but I'll be damned if I could hear anything.

One more thing: just a reminder. The spikes I am talking about are literally milliseconds in length, and if there are more than a half dozen of them in any given file, I would be surprised. I would be willing to bet good money that if I were to total all of the "spikes" in one recording, adding the times together, I would probably have less than a full second for the entire song. Plus, I'm not sending recordings to like Sony records or Arista. They are backing tracks for live performances for relatively small audiences.

Just keep having fun, like you're doing, and everything else will follow!

Yep, that's the plan, thanks so much!

[Watchful]

You're welcome! The only thing--to be fair--is keep Maarid's comment in your back pocket. I've met a few musicians who said they'd never really upload their music, that it was just for fun, or to share among friends, who later decide to do so and realize they have to go back and re-master their old stuff. Sometimes that's great--especially if new technology lets you unleash a ton more of your creative potential. But sometimes you really, really wish you'd addressed small issues when you could have.

Anyway, don't stress too much. You might listen outside of your headphones and throw some of your music onto a thumb drive and listen to it in the car. That's about the worst-case environment, I think. But also listen to it on someone's high-end sound system: you *might* hear something you don't like. And it's easy to fix now.

Some of my older stuff sounded great back in the day of cassette tapes, boom boxes, and Walkmen, but today I'll hear it and think, "Wow, that guitar seriously needs more compression."