Korg multi/poly

[BONES]

That's not how it was portrayed at the time and it's not how it's remembered in places like Wikipedia.

[zvenx]

Wikipedia vs first hand knowledge.. hmmm.
rsp

[zvenx]

This sounds soooo good..
Can't wait for it to come out in software (assuming it will one day).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv-AdCfF0Nc


rsp

[kritikon]

I'm assuming it will. Took around a couple years with Opsix & Wavestate iirc though it might have been longer. Modwave was quite a bit longer. This is the same format/family, so my guess is it will follow the others into sw. Hopefully it's the US team that developed this? The initial Korg plug-in releases were deeply flawed on release but Wavestate was mostly fixed - Opsix native is still almost unusable for me and the Japan team seem to have no interest in fixing it. Tolerable for me as I got the half price for being a hw owner, but if I'd paid full price I'd be acutely pissed off with Korg. Opsix native is garbage, such a shame. Must admit, it makes me nervous about buying further Korg plug-ins...the only other single VSTi that regularly crashes my DAW is also Korg. Their Odyssey still does it to this day when I flick through presets while playing. Korg have a track record with this and I have to admit it, even being a fanboi...

[danatkorg]

I'm assuming it will. Took around a couple years with Opsix & Wavestate iirc though it might have been longer. Modwave was quite a bit longer. This is the same format/family, so my guess is it will follow the others into sw. Hopefully it's the US team that developed this? The initial Korg plug-in releases were deeply flawed on release but Wavestate was mostly fixed - Opsix native is still almost unusable for me and the Japan team seem to have no interest in fixing it. Tolerable for me as I got the half price for being a hw owner, but if I'd paid full price I'd be acutely pissed off with Korg. Opsix native is garbage, such a shame. Must admit, it makes me nervous about buying further Korg plug-ins...the only other single VSTi that regularly crashes my DAW is also Korg. Their Odyssey still does it to this day when I flick through presets while playing. Korg have a track record with this and I have to admit it, even being a fanboi...

What are your issues with wavestate native ("mostly fixed?")
And, while my team didn't work on opsix native, I'm happy to pass on any concerns; let me know what you're having difficulty with!

[egbert101]

Only problem with Opsix is that it's not multi-timbral, which is not exactly Korg's fault, it's just how I prefer to use things. Okay, it has the ability to split the operators across the keyboard, but that's not what I mean. But otherwise, I like Opsix, I think it's a brilliant concept, which I wish it would expand on.

[Korg Supporter]

Only problem with Opsix is that it's not multi-timbral, which is not exactly Korg's fault, it's just how I prefer to use things. Okay, it has the ability to split the operators across the keyboard, but that's not what I mean. But otherwise, I like Opsix, I think it's a brilliant concept, which I wish it would expand on.

The hardware version of the Opsix still has Smooth Sound Transition. Hold a pad, switch the sound, and play the next sound with one hand while holding the other keys!

[kritikon]

What are your issues with wavestate native ("mostly fixed?")
And, while my team didn't work on opsix native, I'm happy to pass on any concerns; let me know what you're having difficulty with!

Same as the release issue with the high CPU use. I can now use 1 instance of Wavestate perfectly OK and it uses CPU as I'd expect so that was fixed, but the moment I load up a 2nd instance then the massive CPU spike happens - not just double the usual CPU but a huge jump. It's a bit weird as it still does the old trick of CPU spikes in idle, but eases a bit when playing, but generally I can just about use 2 instances simultaneously but uses so much CPU that I have to disable other plugins or render to audio etc. And it's random - sometimes I can turn off 2nd instance and it stops, or sometimes it hogs CPU in both idle and playing continually or just in idle. It does it with simple patches with single layer, it's not big patches only. I'm OK with it though - I tend to render to audio a lot out of old habit, I can work around it and I don't tend to use the same synth twice anyway. I'm more hw based, so I rarely run tracks with multiple VSTi anyway. 1 Wavestate at a time is fine for me personally, so it really isn't a problem - so relieved you guys fixed it. In fact I surprised myself and tend to use Wavestate native more than the hw nowadays.

However, Opsix still behaves the same way as Wavestate did on release. Huge CPU use but worse than Wavestate ever was. 1 instance uses around 50% of my whole CPU, and it isn't the meter reading it wrongly, as if I load 2 instances it jitters, crackles etc or if unlucky it just crashes - all the symptoms of CPU overload. Before Wavestate was fixed, both Opsix and Wavestate behaved similar and I could have an instance of each loaded and the CPU spike was mostly in idle but it eased a bit when playing. It stressed the system but was just about doable. Since Wavestate was fixed - when I now load Opsix the CPU jumps up in both idle and playing and never relents. 1 instance of Opsix on its own uses considerably over 50% if it's anything more than a simple patch. It uses so much CPU that I daren't ever load it up in any kind of populated track with even relatively light FX/plugins etc running. I can only use it at the beginning when no CPU is taken up elsewhere.

My laptop isn't amazing or wizzbang, it's a 3yr old HP on a midrange i7, 16GB RAM, NVidia graphics all factory standard and Cubase 13 (was the same on Cubase 12 too). However, I can run a full track on it with say 7 or 8 VSTi + sw drums (more depending on which ones I use) and a whole shitload of FX and mastering. It does the job and always has done, but not when Opsix loads up. A bare track with 2 Opsixes (or 1 Wavestate with 1 Opsix) and I'd struggle to load up any other sw. Opsix is the culprit without any doubt. It's instant the moment I load it up. It's weird that Opsix somehow seems to interact with Wavestate to give all the old CPU problems when both loaded. 2 Wavestates is an issue but usable. 2 Opsixes is a no-go. I'm on the latest version (at least I was 2 or 3 months ago) and none of them fixed the horrendous CPU. Really it is unusable to the point I gave up with it and use only the hw Opsix - I could see a use for native as an editor for programming and then transferring to hw but only with nothing else running. May as well stick with the hw and editor/librarian.

[danatkorg]

What are your issues with wavestate native ("mostly fixed?")
And, while my team didn't work on opsix native, I'm happy to pass on any concerns; let me know what you're having difficulty with!

Same as the release issue with the high CPU use. I can now use 1 instance of Wavestate perfectly OK and it uses CPU as I'd expect so that was fixed, but the moment I load up a 2nd instance then the massive CPU spike happens - not just double the usual CPU but a huge jump.

I'm sorry that you're having difficulties with your system! That's absolutely not normal behavior for wavestate native. I've logged an issue. It would be helpful if you could provide the normal set of full info for your system (motherboard, RAM, exact OS version, audio interface, buffer settings etc.)

It won't be the same issue as with the very first release, since that was about a form of multi-threading that some systems didn't like.

[BONES]

Wikipedia vs first hand knowledge.. hmmm.

It doesn't feel like first-hand knowledge when you use phrases like "from what I understand". OTOH, it was all over the music press at the time and I never read anything other than that Yamaha had bought a controlling interest in Korg. Both the Korg and Yamaha Wikipedia pages confirm that scenario. Of course, like all good Wikipedia pages, references are cited on the Yamaha page and can be read by anyone who's interested.

[serge]

Korg’s really stepping up their game with the latest batch of gear. I’ve been a die-hard Elektron and Roland fanboy for ages, but when I need to get a track out quickly, I keep reaching for the modwave, wavestate, and opsix—either the hardware or their VST plugins. The sound quality is top-tier, and the workflow on these is super intuitive. They’re deep instruments, but not in a way that kills your flow. Tweaking presets to sit just right in a mix is actually fun, and the interface makes it easy to get into the details without getting bogged down.

The way the modwave and wavestate let you save layers of presets is huge for me. I love that I can save individual programs, performances, wave sequences, and even specific lanes, scales, or effects. If I spend time customizing something to feel like “mine,” I can use that sequence or program in a totally different performance later. It’s too bad the Opsix doesn’t have the same granularity—I’d love to see reusable Motion & Sequences there, with each lane controlled independently (like direction, length, resolution). That level of control on the modwave and wavestate is exactly what I’m looking for.

I’m pretty excited to see the multi-poly launch, but I’m definitely sticking with the module and VST formats over the keyboards. And for the time being, while I love some of the new analog modeling features, new filters, added OSCs, i'm pretty well covered with the existing modules. The module is a preferred format for me as I’ve already got plenty of keys (NI Kontrol S61 MK3, Moog Subsequent 37), so space is tight, plus the Korg keyboards don’t have aftertouch, which is a deal-breaker for me. Having the modules is perfect, and pairing them with a Behringer Swing is compact & has after touch:

swing-modwave.jpg

One thing missing from the recent Korg’s lineup for me, though, is a true integrated sampler with line or mic input. Being able to capture quick vocal chops or other sounds right on the spot would be killer, especially since I like using the human voice to add a little life to a track. Sure, I can import sounds, but it’s such a vibe-killer to stop and load them in manually. Here’s hoping the next wave of Korg gear makes that easier!

[danatkorg]

To be fair, Korg had a 40 year headstart and they did spend 6 years under Yamaha ownership,

This is a side point, but from what I understand through working at Korg for 30+ years, that's not quite correct. Yamaha made a business loan to Korg, which was then paid back. Korg also used Yamaha keybeds for a time.

Wikipedia vs first hand knowledge.. hmmm.

It doesn't feel like first-hand knowledge when you use phrases like "from what I understand". OTOH, it was all over the music press at the time and I never read anything other than that Yamaha had bought a controlling interest in Korg. Both the Korg and Yamaha Wikipedia pages confirm that scenario. Of course, like all good Wikipedia pages, references are cited on the Yamaha page and can be read by anyone who's interested.

I often use phrases like "from what I understand" out of a general disinclination to use positive assertions (see Benjamin Franklin on that point).

The Wikipedia article cites one reference. It's not from the contemporary financial press, but instead from a popular-audience book on synthesizers written more than a decade after the fact. I started at Korg R&D in 1990, during the time period of the Yamaha loan. I was directly involved in product development. If Yamaha "owned" Korg during this time, it was never mentioned; if Korg operated as a "subsidiary" of Yamaha during this time (as in the cited book), it was never mentioned either. We never discussed any of our product plans with anyone at Yamaha, for instance. Our Japanese manager Karl Hirano originally worked at Yamaha but switched over to be an employee of Korg with the rest of the Sequential/DSI folks, and remained with Korg for the rest of his career.

I'll also point out that the distinction may be subtle. Korg is a private company, so it doesn't need to disclose many aspects of its finances. Even the cited source mentions that Kato-san bought back his shares after this period, which again sounds like it was functionally a secured loan. As I wrote initially, this is a side-point to the discussion; it just comes up from time to time, so I thought it was worthwhile to address it.

[revvy]

Aha, a fancy-pants fact-based approach. I like it.

[BONES]

The Wikipedia article cites one reference. It's not from the contemporary financial press, but instead from a popular-audience book on synthesizers written more than a decade after the fact.

Are you honestly going to question the integrity of Sound On Sound, on top of Wikipedia? And ignore the fact that it aligns exactly with my direct recollection of what happened.

If Yamaha "owned" Korg during this time, it was never mentioned

Why would it have been, especially as it was described as amicable. I don't know who any of the shareholders are in the company I work for. It's not relevant.

... if Korg operated as a "subsidiary" of Yamaha during this time (as in the cited book), it was never mentioned either.

Look at Daihatsu - a wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota that , if anything, has more independence than it did before. Rather than changing all the names to "Toyota", they actually renamed their Thailand R&D business to include the Daihatsu name. As it was with Yamaha/Korg, Toyota are like a big brother to Daihatsu, using their clout to help Diahatsu thrive.

We never discussed any of our product plans with anyone at Yamaha, for instance.

That you know about. I doubt that would have happened at the level you'd have had knowledge of and products like the DS-8 and 707 would tend to suggest that Yamaha was deeply involved with some of Korg's products.

Even the cited source mentions that Kato-san bought back his shares after this period, which again sounds like it was functionally a secured loan.

Functionally, yes, but in reality if shares changed hands, then it was more than a loan.

As I wrote initially, this is a side-point to the discussion; it just comes up from time to time, so I thought it was worthwhile to address it.

Except you are wrong about it, which isn't helpful at all.

[danatkorg]

The Wikipedia article cites one reference. It's not from the contemporary financial press, but instead from a popular-audience book on synthesizers written more than a decade after the fact.

Are you honestly going to question the integrity of Sound On Sound, on top of Wikipedia? And ignore the fact that it aligns exactly with my direct recollection of what happened.

No straw-men, please. I have always enjoyed talking with folks at SOS, including the specific author in question, about my group's products over the past three decades. This is not a question of "integrity," but rather the accuracy of specific aspects of a relatively minor claim.

As far as your "direct recollection," unless you were actually involved in Yamaha and Korg business at the time, your memories would presumably be based on rumors from the popular press at the time. That isn't particularly compelling as an argument.

Except you are wrong about it, which isn't helpful at all.

I've corrected this "Yamaha owned Korg" misconception at various times over the years, based both on my direct experience of having worked at Korg R&D since 1990 (as previously described) and information from others at Korg. I'm honestly a bit puzzled as to why you're choosing to be so forceful in your opinions here. As I noted in my first response, it really is a side point.