Zebra3 + MPE controller vs. DAW/Host - - - How to ? (and post links ?)

[Funky40]

Hey, i think it makes sense to have a own thread for that one:

play Zebra3 with an MPE controller.

Main topic:
What`s the necessary settings within Zebra ?


Any DAW specific settings and Tipps ?


What DAWs or Hosts do you prefer ? Which ones are less suited ?
You have links to already existing topics or YT ?




I`m for example completly new to play with MPE controllers.
Others have questions too


edit: Thread made in sake to find the infos later again

[Funky40]

and if i dare. From the Zebra3 thread:

I have some mental block about how to setup Zebra in Bitwig. I want to make sure I'm not missing anything since I just started using MPE alot lately.

Plunk Zebra 3 on a track
Set device header to "Use MPE"
Set track header to "Same"
Set Pitches->Pitch Bend to MPE for Up and Down

Is that it?

Thanks and sorry to ask again!

[Urs]

I'll link this post in our Slack, maybe someone can come here and explain it... (I don't really know)

I do suspect, many DAWs say "MPE Mode" but then that puts the DAW into their own kind of MPE mode, not the instruments. So for Zebra 3 to use MPE Mode it needs pure MIDI signals, not something the DAW converts to whatever random set of proprietary expressions.

The DAWs which have abandoned MIDI as the standard protocol are such a source of frustration to me, I need to largely ignore this topic to keep mentally sane.

[SteveElbows]

It should be simple but it can get complex with some combinations. This will spoil some of the most elegant and short explanations. I'll probably try to stumble over all sorts of details as time goes by in this thread, and then we can try to weed through things and create a more streamlined version of the info eventually.

The good news is that for a lot of people and a bunch of setups, there isnt that much to it really. In that once you are familiar with your MPE controller, your DAWs MPE support, settings and any quirks, making MPE work with Zebra should not be much different to making any other MPE plugin work in the same environment. I will get into that later this week, as its too warm here today.

For now I will just attempt to divide DAWs into 3 or 4 categories:

1) No MPE support. Sometimes there are workarounds, but they are usually tedious and far from optimal and its better to just use a different DAW/plugin host for the mission instead.
2) Plain MPE support. Mostly the DAW has no or just one or two relevant settings, and passes the MPE MIDI data through unchanged, so the experience/data is very similar to pairing a MPE controller with a MPE hardware synth.
3) Opinionated MPE support. The DAW will have several more settings relating to MPE that can change aspects of the MPE data before it gets to the instrument plugin. There are a few good reasons they do this, which I will get into.
4) DAWs that introduce more of their own concepts, usually paired with modern but less well understood aspects of several modern plugin formats. eg CLAP per note expression, VST 3 note expression.

A bit more about the last two of those types:

The opinionated (3). They often dynamically reallocate which MIDI channel a particular active note/voice and its expressive data are using, rather than relying on the original MIDI channels being used by your MPE controller. Reasons for doing this include:

a) MIDI overdubbing. If you want to go back and add more notes to the same area of timeline/clip, eg by recording a second playing session over the top of the first in a way that merges everything together, the DAW needs to reallocate the MIDI channels used by each MPE note. You cant just rely on the channels the MPE controller was coming up with while you are playing it. Otherwise you can end up with multiple notes sounding simultaneously that are using the very same MIDI channel, creating a big mess where the expressive data for each note is no longer properly uniquely attached to only the intended note.

b) Better/easier MPE data creation/editing in the DAW with its own special tools & UI. To make this stuff more seamless, the MIDI channels used by each note can be hidden behind the scenes and dynamically calculated, rather than the user having to keep selecting the MIDI channel when creating/editing specific MPE data. And when you start moving notes and their expressive data around, you dont really want to have to start setting the channel yourself per note to avoid conflicts, better to have code to handle that automatically.

c) Giving users the ability to set MPE channel ranges per track. eg some hardware synths use a smaller range of channels, usually to match how many voices the synth has. eg the few Sequential synths that have MPE support tend to only have 6 voices, and are only listening for MPE notes on MIDI channels 2-7. Rather than having to go into your MPE controllers own settings and reduce the channel range when you want to use that synth, and then change them again when seeking to play more notes using another MPE synth, you could set a track in the DAW to do this, and leave the MPE controllers own settings alone.

These MPE opinionated DAWs usually try to stick to a narrow interpretation of the MPE spec. For example, when it comes to CC's for MPE note channels, they may throw away anything that isnt CC74, even though MPE controllers own settings typically allow different CCs to be used for that MPE axis instead of CC74. I would suggest that in most cases its better to stick to CC74 anyway, and reserve more elaborate stuff in future for either MIDI 2.0 or non-MIDI plugin data communication. There are a couple of hardware synths where CC74 is still hardwired to filter cutoff even when in their MPE mode, and where MPE Y can be used as a more flexible mod source only if you change your controller to use CC1 for MPE Y instead. In my opinion this is a pain and is a sub-optimal implementation by the hardware synth creators, and I wish they hadnt gone down that route at all since it limited their functionality when paired with a DAW that is MPE Opinionated. (examples of this include the Micromonsta 2 and UDO Super 6)

There may be other reasons or aspects of this that I'm not considering right now.

I would generally claim that Logic is an example of type 2. In fact it even uses the old fashioned terminology, harking back to the original MIDI foundation upon which MPE is based. So the UI in Logic is far more likely to mention 'MIDI Mono Mode' (AKA guitar mode) rather than actually use the term MPE, but it boils down to a similar thing, having notes/voices on individual MIDI channels.

Bitwig and Ableton are examples of type 3.

I usually shudder and place Cubase into type 4. But especially when used with CLAP note expression stuff, Bitwig could be said to share some aspects with type 4 too.

I havent got my head round type 4 properly yet. Cubase adds a whole additional level of settings confusion for not very much gain, given that support for the Note Expression side of VST 3 seems to be limited to only a few plugins so far, lacking any momentum as best I can tell. But I am biased against Cubase for other reasons too, and my experience of looking at the settings was only brief using a trial version. When I get deeper into this stuff, with the hope I can be helpful to others about it, its much more likely to be via Bitwig and CLAP.

[SteveElbows]

I may as well also claim that the MIDI standards people are still bogged down by the MIDI 2.0 equivalent of the stuff I labelled as type 4 above. In that they've defined all sorts of aspects for how MIDI 2.0 behaves in the wider world, but now they are having to repeat the exercise in the context of how the hell DAWs & plugins should consistently handle the new data & paradigms that MIDI 2.0 involves. I dont think the results of that are public yet, so I cannot say whether they have managed to retain some elegance or whether its a world of pain and confusion. But there is probably some overlap between the pain and complexity of that challenge and the stuff that hurts the brain of Urs in the MIDI 1 & host/plugin standards world. Best case scenario is that they manage to solve some stuff that offers a standard way forward that more DAWs will be happy to embrace, even potentially undoing some of the pain Urs feels from the existing situation. But other eventualities are possible including a big messy overengineered level of complexity that further slows any chance that MIDI 2.0 has of taking off within a reasonable timeframe, or of DAWs & plugin standards ending up with more in common again in a way that meaningfully helps instrument etc developers over the long term.

[SteveElbows]

When it comes to Zebra 3's MPE implementation, I think the topic 'Zebra 3 Control ABCD - MIDI vs. Macros' on this forum ( viewtopic.php?t=629796 ) is an example of how relatively straightforward concepts can get bogged down by different needs and desires, how illusive it can be to come up with the most elegant solutions which meet both MPE and non-MPE needs at the same time, while navigating a complex user and DAW/plugin format landscape. But its also the case that sometimes temporary bugs in the implementation can be the source of a lot of the woes, rather than the actual concept being faulty, so work is required to recognise when bugs are being conflated with conceptual issues.

Some genuine issues and caveats can emerge along the way, but the discussions can get bloated or fractious or go round in circles. Maybe its the only way to get the right feedback and to carefully consider all issues, solutions and potential side effects, and so the best idea may be to go through all this pain and huge quantity of words, in the hope that eventually neat solutions and short written summaries will still be possible. Some users are up for getting deep into these discussions, other are better served by avoiding that level of detail and just getting their heads around the eventual outcomes.

Zebra 3 is not the only plugin which handles the MPE Y (AKA MPE Slide AKA Timbre, CC74) dimension by allowing it to be mapped to an existing control knob in the instrument. There are some advantages to this approach, despite the caveats. At some stage Pigments went down this route, with one of its knobs changing function to act per-voice for MPE Y when that plugin is in MPE mode. Serum offers some similar mappings too, but with even more configurable options that enable or disable such connections, and also takes the other approach of having MPE Y as a dedicated mod source. In many cases trying to describe this is more complicated than actually using it!

[Funky40]

deleted, guess i pissed a man. So, plz Nvrmd

[SteveElbows]

One of the reasons I initially skipped providing the straightforwards, short direct answer is that people tend to learn that stuff via general MPE instructions for their MPE controller or DAW, and there isnt much Zebra 3-specific knowledge that needs to sit on top of that other info in order to get things working.

Generic version of the steps:

Make sure your MPE controller is set to a standard MPE mode of working, including MPE Y (AKA Slide AKA Timbre) being set to use CC74.

Establish whether you need to do stuff inside the DAW to make the MPE bit of the controller work properly. For example ticking MPE box next to the relevant MIDI input device in Ableton, or using the right controller script for your MPE controller in Bitwig. Cubase setup seems more convoluted, best to refer to Cubase instructions from the MPE controller manufacturers which they often feel the need to provide to reduce their own support burden. If your own MPE controller lacks such help, consider looking at Roli or Osmose docs or videos for clues.

Establish whether the instance of the Zebra plugin inside your DAW needs some options to be selected inside the DAWs UI (right clicking header of plugin device in Ableton and Enabling MPE, just to give one example. Bitwig settings probably different for CLAP version of plugin and I usually just keep clicking things till I get the desired result).

Press the button to enable MPE inside the Zebra UI.

[Urs]

I think a group of people at u-he have started a project to explain things for each DAW we use.

[rACatkvr]

@Urs any chance of a listing of what those DAWs are?