Mark Mothersbaugh on Classic Hardware vs Software Emulations

[jamcat]

Again are we supposed to be impressed by that?

I’m impressed by anyone who has finished an album. Hell, I’m impressed by anyone who has finished a song.

[stoopicus]

Yeah, all joking aside, I have not yet done this so I am not casting any stones there.

[machinesworking]

If you stack the exact same sawtooth wave that doesn't really move at all a thousand times you're not going to hear much difference, in other words, with no variation stacking doesn't do anything, and detuning will just make it muddy.

Detuning creates phasing, which gives the sound movement. It's the very essence of Unison. Without detuning it just makes it louder, which is useless. bx_oberhausen doesn't have a detune control but if you turn on TMT, which simulates analogue instability in the signal path, you get the same effect and it is perfectly judged on that synth to make it sound abso-f**king-lutely huge! Four voices is usually plenty (which is good because it's a CPU hog) but it's nice to know there are 32 available if you need them.

Atomika oscs wide open with as little filter influence on the sound as possible etc. still sound much bigger than the Memory V, or most soft synths. This, is the mythical analog (™Bones) hardware sound that some people complain about, and again we have examples where developers pull it off, it's not impossible.

I think GForce's SEM does a pretty good job here, too, whereas Cherry's SEM definitely needs unison (which it has), as does Arturia's (which it lacks). DForce's OB-E and OB-EZ, of course, have it all - big oscillators and 8 stackable voices. If only OB-E was a little easier to work with or OB-EZ offered a few more controls.

One thing kind of cool on the Memorymoog here, there's a bunch of service settings you can access, so you can look at the oscillators tuning range etc. it shows the amount of cents off each oscillator is, and even "in tune" they float 2-5 cents around 7F in hexidecimal where they're suppose to sit, the numbers are always moving but only by a slight amount cents wise. That's all 18 oscillators all very slightly moving all the time. I think this is why so many soft synths sound like virtual analogs or DCO synths, that's a hell of a lot of CPU cycles to calculate, especially adding in all the other elements of a synth beyond the oscs. I suspect most developers are just detuning by a few cents without it movin around. Maybe that's why I like what I hear with Atomika, on a big bass sound it's doing a good simulation of that irregular tuning without sounding artificial?

The thing though, DCO synths and VA's, wavetable etc. all sound great. There are tricks to add in beef that have nothing to do with slight variations in tuning etc.

You're reminding me I need to mess with the Oberhausen a bit more, don't own the G-Force version, but I got decent bass out of the Arturia years ago.

[BONES]

I dunno how much more CPU intensive it would be, it's really just another LFO per osc to calculate.

[BONES]

Wow so you are taking about things from 10 years ago

How is that relevant in showing that it's not an Industrial music chart? After all, it's not my fault that Red Hot Chili Peppers and Psychedelic Furs haven't released anything for a while.

In 2016 Red Hot Chili Peppers released an album called "The Getaway" it went #1 in 10 countries and #2 in the USA, UK, and Germany on the Billboard 200 chart. It sold over 500,000 units in America and is certified Gold, and another 500,000+ globally. It's a great album, I own it and went to that tour in 2017 and saw them headline Lollapalooza festival in July 2016.

Which proves my point, doesn't it? No Industrial band in history as ever had that level of success.

The fact you are comparing yourself with them is cute.

I wasn't comparing anything, I was simply pointing out that you have no f**king idea what you're talking about. But when you think about it, it does show you the kinds of artists that our music has been able to compete successfully with.

Novakill has never been on the Billboard 200

We've never released a single in the US and our first two albums, which were released in the US, were rubbish and didn't chart anywhere. That's one of the good things about not being stuck in the past, you give yourself the opportunity to learn and grow, to get better at what you do.

Now if you want to talk about the DAC or the German Alternative Chart that's a different story. That's not based on album sales or streams. It's a closed-panel chart compiled by publicists determined by points awarded from weekly DJ playlists, not from actual sales.

Yes, it's like the Oscars or the Golden Globes, which is why it means a lot more to us than some shallow (but potentially lucrative) popularity contest. After all, it's not like any bands in our genre have ever done anything of note on any mainstream charts anywhere in the world. Even Skinny Puppy never cracked the Top 100 in the States, although Nitzer Ebb and Front 242 had some minor success on the Billboard Dance chart in the late 80s and early 90s.

You can reach #1 on that chart without actual selling much of anything.

You don't have to tell us that, the album that spent 2 weeks at no. 1 only sold 69 CDs in it's first quarter on sale (which was its best quarter).

It's pretty meaningless in reality.

Absolutely, I shudder to think what sort of utter shite we'd have to churn out to sell records. You can f**king have that, mate, we'll do what we do and be more than happy with some minimal acknowledgement from the industry that we're doing OK.

Again are we supposed to be impressed by that?

Well, it's all relative, isn't it? The obvious elephant in the room is how your career would compare to ours. I mean, I'm not proud of any chart success we might have had or any of that, but I am proud of the body of work I/we have been able to accumulate over the decades. Our Discogs page, for example, spreads over three pages of releases. What does yours look like? And if I go and search YouTube, how many Ivy Birds videos will I find? Or maybe you can point us to some of your work on Spotify or Apple Music?

Or maybe f**king not, eh?

So yeah, it's all relative.

But that was 10 years ago, and it's 2026. The State of the Music Industry and Music Production is vastly different now than it was then which is really the topic of this thread

Oh yeah, it is 2026, isn't it. And where were we when 2026 rolled around? Oh, that's right, we had an album at no. 4 on the DAC. Honestly, you just keep walking straight into it. It's so easy it's not even fun any more.

Anyway, I should be getting on. The new album isn't going to master itself, is it?

[Seafire Mk2]

I recently found a couple of remixes I did on Spotify

[IvyBirds]

Again are we supposed to be impressed by that?

Well, it's all relative, isn't it? The obvious elephant in the room is how your career would compare to ours.

Cool I will take that bet. While you hope a few random DJs play your music in a club half a world away, I actually play live music in a club and other venues and get paid for it. There is no better feeling for me than playing music live in front of an audience

But that's the thing, we have different goals and needs. Yet you constantly feel the need to be a total A Hole and pretend that your workflow and way of doing things is the only valid one and anyone who likes different things or does things differently is somehow wrong.

But that was 10 years ago, and it's 2026. The State of the Music Industry and Music Production is vastly different now than it was then which is really the topic of this thread

Oh yeah, it is 2026, isn't it. And where were we when 2026 rolled around? Oh, that's right, we had an album at no. 4 on the DAC. Honestly, you just keep walking straight into it. It's so easy it's not even fun any more.

Anyway, I should be getting on. The new album isn't going to master itself, is it?

[/Quote]
And that right there is my exact point

What you really mean is than an AI wrote a song for you that you didn't write, that you tweaked a bit using presets on plugins you didn't design, and some DJs half a world away played an AIs song while you took credit for it. Wow you must be very proud about that and shockingly think anyone should care, and now you are mastering an entire album of AI created music

I can't imagine the emptiness and humiliation I would feel knowing that an AI made music for me and I released it to the world as my own work. That's really no different than Milli Vanilli releasing an album they didn't work on, winning a Grammy, and then having to give it back

If you however want to release AI music as your own awesome. I wonder how many DJs and club owners in Germany know they are playing AI generated music, and how many paying customers of those clubs know?

You have also openly bragged multiple times in this thread how you distribute music through Bandcamp how it's your #1 website Yet Bandcamp has a strict No AI Policy

https://blog.bandcamp.com/2026/01/13/ke ... amp-human/

Don't be surprised if one day you are booted from the service if they find out. I won't tell them BTW as I am not that kind of guy, you do have plenty of enemies you have personally attacked here on KVR who might however

I do know they recently removed the entire Cryochamber Label's catalog because they mistakenly thought it was AI and they had a difficult time getting it out back on

In this thread you have repeatedly said that people who don't make music with AI, and who's personal goals are not to have a few DJs in a few clubs in Germany play AI generated music we are passing on as our own, are wasting money and somehow wrong because they make different music, in a different way, with different tools than you do. Again awesome

[machinesworking]

I dunno how much more CPU intensive it would be, it's really just another LFO per osc to calculate.

You start off right away with 18 LFOs on a 3 osc synth with 6 voices, before anything else happens, and the math is now constantly calculated on a moving target that would be more sample and hold than sine wave. So it definitely would take CPU cycles. I would say that a good portion of the reason that the saturated feel of certain analog synths doesn't get to 100% is likely due to a trade off between CPU cycles and accuracy, of course at this point CPUs are pretty amazing so less excuses to not get accurate to a sound etc. I actually recall Urs mentioning this when Diva was released, that the last 10% is the most CPU consuming and there are compromises.

[Seafire Mk2]

What you really mean is than an AI wrote a song for you that you didn't write, that you tweaked a bit using presets on plugins you didn't design, and some DJs half a world away played an AIs song while you took credit for it. Wow you must be very proud about that and shockingly think anyone should care, and now you are mastering an entire album of AI created music

I can't imagine the emptiness and humiliation I would feel knowing that an AI made music for me and I released it to the world as my own work. That's really no different than Milli Vanilli releasing an album they didn't work on, winning a Grammy, and then having to give it back

If you however want to release AI music as your own awesome. I wonder how many DJs and club owners in Germany know they are playing AI generated music, and how many paying customers of those clubs know?

You have also openly bragged multiple times in this thread how you distribute music through Bandcamp how it's your #1 website Yet Bandcamp has a strict No AI Policy

https://blog.bandcamp.com/2026/01/13/ke ... amp-human/

Don't be surprised if one day you are booted from the service if they find out. I won't tell them BTW as I am not that kind of guy, you do have plenty of enemies you have personally attacked here on KVR who might however

I do know they recently removed the entire Cryochamber Label's catalog because they mistakenly thought it was AI and they had a difficult time getting it out back on

In this thread you have repeatedly said that people who don't make music with AI, and who's personal goals are not to have a few DJs in a few clubs in Germany play AI generated music we are passing on as our own, are wasting money and somehow wrong because they make different music, in a different way, with different tools than you do. Again awesome

Didn't he say he used AI to help write lyrics. Pretty sure it's not used for full songs, as most of the music is written by SiK iirc

[Seafire Mk2]

There is no better feeling for me than playing music live in front of an audience

Out of interest, what sort of music?

[Karbon L. Forms]

IvyBirds must have a live set on the tubes we could check out?

[IvyBirds]

IvyBirds must have a live set on the tubes we could check out?

Oh I do, but I learned a long time ago to keep a wall between my professional life and my private life especially on forums like this. No good can come of commingling the two.

My professional goal with music was always to do it full time and not have to work a "real job"

I have achieved that. I play solo piano gigs which really pay the bills at private parties, weddings, and events. Usually using my Montage and a small PA, and I play in two different cover bands one is 1980s pop/rock and the other is is more of a classic rock band. We also play in a lot of private parties and events but also at various bars, clubs and other venues around the middle Atlantic coast of the US. Now that it's summer we also play a lot of outdoor gigs at fairs and festivals

What good would come of me posting video here of myself playing Bach at a dinner party on my Montage using a grand piano preset? Or Madonna and Phil Collins songs in my 80s cover band, or Beatles and Eagles covers in my other band?

In the context of this thread we play Madonna's "Holiday" and "Lucky Star" as we have a really good female vocalist. Those use Minimoog for the baseline. I play those with "The Legend HZ" using custom made patches I made using my SFC-Mini controller. I do this live at the gig with the plugin hosted in Gig Performer on my laptop

We also play Madonna's "Open Your Heart" and "Cherish". They use Minimoog layered with FM Bass from DX7. So I made that in Plogue's OPS7 and layered with The Legend HZ

Nothing special or unique just a guy who made some presets that sound like the original so he can have fun and pay the mortgage without having a day job

[IvyBirds]

What you really mean is than an AI wrote a song for you that you didn't write, that you tweaked a bit using presets on plugins you didn't design, and some DJs half a world away played an AIs song while you took credit for it. Wow you must be very proud about that and shockingly think anyone should care, and now you are mastering an entire album of AI created music

I can't imagine the emptiness and humiliation I would feel knowing that an AI made music for me and I released it to the world as my own work. That's really no different than Milli Vanilli releasing an album they didn't work on, winning a Grammy, and then having to give it back

If you however want to release AI music as your own awesome. I wonder how many DJs and club owners in Germany know they are playing AI generated music, and how many paying customers of those clubs know?

You have also openly bragged multiple times in this thread how you distribute music through Bandcamp how it's your #1 website Yet Bandcamp has a strict No AI Policy

https://blog.bandcamp.com/2026/01/13/ke ... amp-human/

Don't be surprised if one day you are booted from the service if they find out. I won't tell them BTW as I am not that kind of guy, you do have plenty of enemies you have personally attacked here on KVR who might however

I do know they recently removed the entire Cryochamber Label's catalog because they mistakenly thought it was AI and they had a difficult time getting it out back on

In this thread you have repeatedly said that people who don't make music with AI, and who's personal goals are not to have a few DJs in a few clubs in Germany play AI generated music we are passing on as our own, are wasting money and somehow wrong because they make different music, in a different way, with different tools than you do. Again awesome

Didn't he say he used AI to help write lyrics. Pretty sure it's not used for full songs, as most of the music is written by SiK iirc

No he uses AI for far more than that, he even uses AI for vocals. It's absolutely AI created content including music and lyrics performed by AI for example

The AI does some of our vocals, both lead and backing, on stage. There will also be plenty of AI instrumental backing on stage, too. Of course, I also record backing vox to use on stage for some older songs and most of the music is sequenced, so it's not all AI, but there will be plenty of it to be heard at future gigs.

So go see him "perform" live and you will be treated to prerecorded AI generated tracks and even prerecorded AI generated vocals

When I play out live everything you hear is being played live by actual human beings

There is no better feeling for me than playing music live in front of an audience

Out of interest, what sort of music?

Sure I play live solo piano usually a mixture of classical and contemporary basically whatever the client wants as they are the ones writing the check

I also play in two cover bands, one that is more of a 1980s pop/top 40 band, and the other that is more of a classic rock band with songs from the 60s-90s. Both bands have a majority of the same members but we do have different singers

I also have good working relationships with several studios in the Middle Atlantic Region of America and get hired from time to time to come in and play as a ghost performer on other people's records, usually piano

None of that is very sexy of course, and I am not saying it is, but I have fun and it's pays the bills well enough that I don't have to have a day job

[eassae]

Oh I do, but I learned a long time ago to keep a wall between my professional life and my private life especially on forums like this. No good can come of commingling the two.

I get your point here, but I kind of wish it was mandatory for members to have links to their music so you know how seriously to take them and their statements. Especially people with super strong opinions—not accusing you—I just find it hard in general to trust something someone says about music without hearing their music.

[eassae]

So go see him "perform" live and you will be treated to prerecorded AI generated tracks and even prerecorded AI generated vocals

Here's a gif I created for Bones…with help from the creators of South Park.



Anyone feel free to use it liberally: https://eassae.com/img/bones.gif