Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[soulata]

I think that by this post and your signature, you deeply underestimate originallity of people (particularly KVRians) today. I have started a good dozen of seemingly retarded topics like that, including 2 trance lead ones and only have gotton awesome results, because KVRians are awesome.

In other news, I'm going to make a song with very stereotypical trance leads, goa bass, and a housey snare just so another one of these songs can be around to bother you (and yes, I'll throw some loops in there for the occasion).

Don't get me wrong.
I don't even f**king CLAIM to sound or do anything original.
I'm using loops.
I'm using sounds that have been used for decades.
I´'m using chord and rhythm patterns older than myself.
I'm playing the same old shitty scales on the guitar everybody is playing. In standard tuning even...

All I want to do is to put these to good use. Either for me or for someone else. Whatever that means, it simply doesn't matter.

It just somewhat strikes me that people are claiming things such as "you're not doing anything original in case you're using loops", but when I'm listening to their music it's stuffed with stereotypes. Plus you find them asking questions about "how to get this sound", "which chord to play here", "how to program this groove" and so on.
All this is just the same as using loops.

As said above, I've got no problems with any of those - but people should f**king stop to claim "loops are not original" or "those hoover stabs are boring" - unless they're really proving the difference by sounding original. Which 99.9% of musicians (myself included) don't do.

ditto

[munchkin]

I think we've reached the dreaded groundhog day moment in the thread where everything has been distilled down to two opposing points of view repeated in an infinite loop.













Shall I just shut up?

[Sicklecell666]

I make all my own loops.

Am I plaguerizing myself if I use them?

[GaggingMaggot]

My friend Jimmy started playing guitar at the age of seven, practiced day in and day out for years, and by the time he was fourteen he could play just about anything he heard. He was good and only got better as time went on.

It sounded good

I farted once into an AKG large condender mic while recording to hard disk, took the resulting wav. file normalized it, cut the fat from the front and end of it, imported it into a channel in my software DAW.
Ran that channel's volume through a hard square LFO
synchronized to the host BPM of 120, in quarter notes.
Then applied a second LFO to the channels filter frequency, only this time I used a sine wave instead of a square lowered it's effect to mid way, and set its BPM to the host in whole notes. I then put a flange effect in the channels mixer FX slot and linked the wet signal to the y axis of my MIDI controller and the channel's filter resonance level to x axis of the same controller, making it playable in real time.

It sounded good

[TVD]

I am curious, because making drum loops is just about the only musical activity of mine that has any contemporary relevance.

I have two bands, one grungy, one jammy, both horribly out of date.

I write semi-classical music, prog-metal, and weird polyrhythic stuff. All have been received with admiration ("wow,that's cool...") without enthusiasm ("...but it really isn't my kind of thing.")

I'm not bitching. I have fun, I can make my floors shake, and sometimes one of my bands even draws a crowd. But I don't want to become a dinosaur either.

And so, in an effort to preserve myself while staying relevant, I have taken to making live drum loops. This isn't high art, but it makes me feel more connected somehow. Plus, finding a 2 second chunk of music that repeats well is more of a challenge than I had thought.

But now I am finding that those who use drum loops are treated with contempt by those who don't. Kind of like cover bands are regarded by original bands.

And I really don't understand. I mean, songwriters rarely write drum parts. In most bands, the drummer writes his or her own part. And they are not even given songwriting credits!!

But in electronica, you are supposed to write everything, lest you suffer the contempt of your peers. Why? What if a song sounds better with a live drum loop than a sequenced one? Do you spend hours trying to duplicate the live loop with a sampler? If so, again, why?

I am just curious. I am not from the culture of electronica, and your world is new to me. I am just trying to understand it.

Thanks

First of all, lets get something straight:

1) I don't just use loops, I make my own loops (mostly drums & percussion parts)

2) Loops are the greatest things that were ever invented in the history of rock&roll itself (and all of you can quote me).

3) The original masters of THE FUNK (James Brown, Sly Stone, George Clinton, The Meters) invent the loops. The all important parts of the music are the most memorable parts (bassline, keyboard chords, guitar licks, drum beats, etc.) that are replay over & over & over again. That's the groove. And it's the groove that make people dance (something that can't be done with classical,IMHO).

4) Without the power of loops, the following music genres of today would not exist:

Hip-Hop/Rap
R&B
Funk
Electro
Techno
House
Breakbeats
Downtempo
Dance (Disco, Dance-Pop, etc.)
Industrial
Metal
Trance
Acid-Jazz
............and many more that I may not know about.

As for the people with the anti-loop snobbery:

I like classical as much as you do. But with all due respects, most of the young people today will not take classical seriously unless you add some drum beats to it (especially drum loops). I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings. But that the way it is.

As for jazz communities, they invent the concept of jam sessions. Sadly, they forsake it and then turn jazz to coffee house background music!!!

And to make matters worse (or better), the funk & the hip-hop communities took over the responsibility of jam sessions and never look back. And they did it with loops!

Think about it.

[TVD]

What some people tend to not realise is regardless of how good your multisampled drum or guitar library is, and regardless of your programming skill, it's not going to sound as good as a real drummer.

And that's why when people are using FLS, Orion, Reason, Project5, MPCs, ASRs, SP1200, TR-808, TR-909, TR-707, SR-10, or any drum machine program, they have a technique call a swing.

I use FLS. If I was my drum track to sound "human" like a real drummer, I'll get it a 5% to 25% swing.

But if I want my drum track to sound MIDI tight like Kraftwerk or The Human League, it'll get no swing at all.

And besides, I save money by not having a live drummer.

[Cabinfever]

I like classical as much as you do. But with all due respects, most of the young people today will not take classical seriously unless you add some drum beats to it (especially drum loops). I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings. But that the way it is.

and thats one reason why young people are often regarded with great amusement by more mature folks. its just like little kids who want to put salt or ketchup on everything 'because it tastes better'

[Sicklecell666]

I like classical as much as you do. But with all due respects, most of the young people today will not take classical seriously unless you add some drum beats to it (especially drum loops). I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings. But that the way it is.

and thats one reason why young people are often regarded with great amusement by more mature folks. its just like little kids who want to put salt or ketchup on everything 'because it tastes better'

Ketchup on Wagner, eh?

What an amazing concept..

[TVD]

What about honest, human emotion and feeling? Sure, the person who recorded the original loop may have had it -- and loops can be used in many worthwhile ways -- but if all there is is the same two-bar loop over and over and over identically, what sort of tension and release can it express?

Two words: Dr. Dre!!!

Seriously, even if the beats are the same two-bar loops, as long as it's funky & banging, you might have a potential top 10 hit.

[TVD]

I like classical as much as you do. But with all due respects, most of the young people today will not take classical seriously unless you add some drum beats to it (especially drum loops). I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings. But that the way it is.

and thats one reason why young people are often regarded with great amusement by more mature folks. its just like little kids who want to put salt or ketchup on everything 'because it tastes better'

Classical composers & musicians are the real musicians in every sense of the word. They're the real deal just because they're the only group of people that will still use all of the chords & scales that still exist today.

But with all due respect again, mainstream artists (especially in hip-hop & R&B) are the ones with the bling-bling, the top 100 hits, & the biggest fanbase and not the classical artists.

Mainstream use loops. Classical don't.

[TVD]

I like classical as much as you do. But with all due respects, most of the young people today will not take classical seriously unless you add some drum beats to it (especially drum loops). I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings. But that the way it is.

and thats one reason why young people are often regarded with great amusement by more mature folks. its just like little kids who want to put salt or ketchup on everything 'because it tastes better'

BTW, that was funny!

[TVD]

how long is a loop ???

slainte rob

2 to 4 bars.

[soulata]

And it's the groove that make people dance (something that can't be done with classical,IMHO).

yes (first part) and no (bach IS groovy and does groove when played well)*

And that's why when people are using FLS, Orion, Reason, Project5, MPCs, ASRs, SP1200, TR-808, TR-909, TR-707, SR-10, or any drum machine program, they have a technique call a swing.

I use FLS. If I was my drum track to sound "human" like a real drummer, I'll get it a 5% to 25% swing.

But if I want my drum track to sound MIDI tight like Kraftwerk or The Human League, it'll get no swing at all.

swing setting is alright, but you still wouldn't be getting the human drummer sound and feeling with it.


k



*ok, it's not classical, it's baroque, but you get the idea

[stefancrs]

And it's the groove that make people dance (something that can't be done with classical,IMHO).

yes (first part) and no (bach IS groovy and does groove when played well)*

Maybe by your own defintion of groove

[whyterabbyt]

Loopz suckz