Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[CypherOne]

Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

i can - some call it snobbery - but some people feel like a musician should be able to do something exclusive
some people just fill a 8 bar pattern with pre defined cuts while some people say they are not musicians
i don't really care - i think my autistic nephew makes music when his hands make uncontrolled movements on a coffee table
everyone who thinks he or she makes music makes music in my opinion .... doesn't make me less of a snob -
i mean i for one wouldn't pay some soul who starts out on acid with some loops a dime, while i would buy the album
from someone like jdg who does loop, but also plays and also had years of experience in making music

Your personality makes up for how interesting your music is.
Not the tools you use

bingo

[Omniphonix]

Are we talking about the difference between using loops and programming your own drum machines here, or the difference between using loops and playing your own drum parts?

[You™]

Are we talking about the difference between using loops and programming your own drum machines here, or the difference between using loops and playing your own drum parts?

It just wouldn't sound the same if Glen Campbell sang:

BY the time I get to -112.02253, 33.31237 she'll be rising,
She'll find the note I left hangin' on her door...

But I'd still like it

Where does one draw the line? Loops, phrases, samples, presets? Why not complain about people who use the same notes and chords as everyone else? ...Or people who don't build their own gear? I heard someone in the Cafe once disparage others by whining that they probably could even tune guitars. Maybe, but has anyone tried tuning analog oscillators, or a piano? I sure hope that isn't a prerequisite for avoiding being slagged. I try not to worry. All I care is if it sounds good and interests me.

[Hink]

things you never thought you'd hear...

It just wouldn't sound the same if Glen Campbell sang:


But I'd still like it

[Omniphonix]

Are we talking about the difference between using loops and programming your own drum machines here, or the difference between using loops and playing your own drum parts?

It just wouldn't sound the same if Glen Campbell sang:

BY the time I get to -112.02253, 33.31237 she'll be rising,
She'll find the note I left hangin' on her door...

But I'd still like it

Where does one draw the line? Loops, phrases, samples, presets? Why not complain about people who use the same notes and chords as everyone else? ...Or people who don't build their own gear? I heard someone in the Cafe once disparage others by whining that they probably could even tune guitars. Maybe, but has anyone tried tuning analog oscillators, or a piano? I sure hope that isn't a prerequisite for avoiding being slagged. I try not to worry. All I care is if it sounds good and interests me.

That's some suttle humor, you, I like it. Frankly, I don't care what anyone uses to write their tracks. If you sound like a wank, I'll tell you that you sound like a wank. (Not You™)

[stag]

I use loops anyway i see fit and program my drums as well i even slice a drum loop and edit it as a regular drum patch : kick ,snare ,hihat.
Why? because i´m not a mixing engineer i´m a musician
and when confronted with unprocessed ,dry to the bone Imperial Drums or BFD ,i think to my self why am i gonna use this multisampled 65Mb Kick ,when i have this
perfect Kick i grabed from some record or loop???
Because someone told me this is bad??? i don´t think so!!!I´m the ultimate judge of my work ,i make my decision and choose the instruments that fit my goal , in the end what matters is the music not how is played or by whom.
Next time perhaps i invent a new tonal system ,new instruments etc. just for the sake or being different. i don´t think so!!!.
I´d rather like what i do than do what you like!!!!
Btw tell me when the bashing on multi tracking, sequencing and presets begins

[dystonia_ek]

Maybe, but has anyone tried tuning analog oscillators, or a piano?

Yes, but it's generally detuning. As pianos go, I prefer just the soundboard and strings minus the case and keyboard though. Easier to get the bow in there.

[Lunatique]

I admit, I'm one of those people that get a bit irritated when people use only pre-recorded loops that they didn't make themselves (drum loops, instrument phrases, pre-arranged clips), slap them together, and call themselves a musician or composer. For that same reason I don't consider DJs musicians either. I feel the same way about people who cut and paste various found pictures together into a collage and call themselves artists. There needs to be some kind of a line drawn, because AFAIK, the general agreed definition for an artist is someone who can actually draw and paint. And the general agreed definition for a musician or composer is someone that can play an instrument or make music with just what's in their head.

But, as we know, there's a big grey area where people combine methods, and loops are only part of the music-making process, while playing instruments and original composition are also incorporated. This, IMO, is ok, because loops become just an element that beefs up an original composition, whereas people that uses nothing but loops cannot make music in any other way.

I think that's really the determining factor. If you can make music without loops, but choose to use them to add to your pieces, then that's fine. But if you're someone who can't make a tune without loops, then that's really a crutch instead of a tool--and no, I don't think people like that are musicians.

[pHz]

There needs to be some kind of a line drawn, because AFAIK, the general agreed definition for an artist is someone who can actually draw and paint. And the general agreed definition for a musician or composer is someone that can play an instrument or make music with just what's in their head.

who generally agreed all this ???

slainte rob

[Sicklecell666]

There needs to be some kind of a line drawn, because AFAIK, the general agreed definition for an artist is someone who can actually draw and paint. And the general agreed definition for a musician or composer is someone that can play an instrument or make music with just what's in their head.

who generally agreed all this ???

slainte rob

Kinda funny, ain't it? The Kreative SS are coming to take away my loop collection like thieves in the night..

[stag]

the general agreed definition for an artist is someone who can actually draw and paint. And the general agreed definition for a musician or composer is someone that can play an instrument or make music with just what's in their head.

I always thougth that an artist was someone with the technique to translate ideas and emotions into something,now you call it a name ,i say f**k Art ,i just want to express myself and if i have to steal for that then sue me.
if i had the power ,anyway, i wouldn´t move a finger at all ,i´d just hire the best team (synphonic orchestra to) and tell them exactly what to do with my ideas ,untill then...

[Lunatique]

Ok, here's the thing. Why is it that we have to make creative endeavors into something so mundane that anyone who don't have the traditionally associated talent/skills can justify calling themselves artists, musicians, writers..etc? You don't see average Joes coming off the street claiming to be doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, politicians, farmers..etc, do you? You don't see that because we only accept people who have proven themselves capable of the traditionally associated ideas of what those titles entails, and we demand that anyone who claims to be one of those things to possess the knowledge, talent, skills..etc required. So why is it that when it comes to creative endeavors, we all of a sudden lower that expectation and now every person who can't compose music from scratch without using pre-recorded loops is a musician, and anyone who can't draw and paint is now an artist? Isn't that belittling what art and music is? Yes, you can call that elitism or whatever, but while you're at it, you might as well call all professions and human endeavors elitism, because like I said, we expect certain level of talent/skill from a person before we would accept him as what he claims to be--whether it's a lawyer, a doctor, a director, a musican, or an engineer.

I have a friend who has a degree in fine art, yet he cannot draw or paint his way out of a paper bag. I don't know why this is allowed to happen, since I seriously doubt you'd find someone who has a degree in other endeavors, but can't perform his chosen endeavor to even the most reasonable level of competence. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I believe if you want to call yourself an artist or musician or writer or whatever, you pay your dues and bite the bullet and learn to be able to do the very thing you claim to be able to do. I don't see this as being snobby--it is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask of someone. Musicians play instruments, and composers compose music out of his head. That's always been the case. Using a bunch of pre-recorded music made by other people is not what it means to be a musician or composer. Yes, loops have their uses, and I have nothing against using them to supplement your composition, but if that's all you know how to do, then I just don't see how anyone like that can look themselves in the mirror and call themselves musicians or composers. Maybe music-maker would be the more appropriate term--but even then, that person is just reassembling what others made already. Not that I don't respect it--because I do--I just think it's a seperate thing from being musician/composer. I'm a big fan of certain DJs, and I don't hold them in any less regard.

[Emerald Tablet]

and what doe make someone a craftsman in your book ? if your friend studied realism and could make a picture ?

an acquaintance from austria was so sick of people callin his work (illustrations for childrenbooks) cute but not art

he made a few very awesome realistic paintings to prove he could do that ... but why should he have done that .. what does he have to prove.

I believe everyones a musician but some shine so bright you and me can see them. tools are just tools

I have heard very skillfull music but not very special music. I have heard very simple stuff in an affected style that was very distinguishing

The first Daft Punk albums as shining examples

[soulata]

So why is it that when it comes to creative endeavors, we all of a sudden lower that expectation and now every person who can't compose music from scratch without using pre-recorded loops is a musician, and anyone who can't draw and paint is now an artist?

So, if I record bass, keys, guitar, flute, vocals and saxes and use some loops for rhythm it makes me a non-musician?

Musicians play instruments, and composers compose music out of his head. That's always been the case. Using a bunch of pre-recorded music made by other people is not what it means to be a musician or composer.

Well, I guess you (as we) could use some sometimes, right?

Yes, loops have their uses, and I have nothing against using them to supplement your composition, but if that's all you know how to do, then I just don't see how anyone like that can look themselves in the mirror and call themselves musicians or composers.

Question wasn't formulated as if it's only loops or none at all.

Agreed on supplementing the composition, but if you need a rhythm track that's hardly supplementing (I'd do it and I do it nevertheless). What does that make me?

k

[mayan]

There needs to be some kind of a line drawn, because AFAIK, the general agreed definition for an artist is someone who can actually draw and paint. And the general agreed definition for a musician or composer is someone that can play an instrument or make music with just what's in their head.

who generally agreed all this ???

slainte rob

Kinda funny, ain't it? The Kreative SS are coming to take away my loop collection like thieves in the night..

First they come for our loops...then our drugs (see, http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=74815) - then our noise (see, http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=966547) - What next?