piz midi looper (beta!)

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amiga909 wrote:piz, what should your midilooper become?
I have a clear vision that "midilooper" should become a prototype of a new sequencing concept, not just another sequencer.
Problem with existing concept of sequencer is that it is based on endless timeline. It is wrong concept from its early start about 30 years ago and nobody dare to change it. All those three decades computers were made to serve as a recording and storage device with different recording tools. Except from auto accompaniment and algorithmic composition tools almost nothing else is done to help composer to compose by providing different composing tools.
The most important composing tool is "thinking" and most of composers think in phrases and their rhythmic and harmonic variations. Nobody feels that starting point in composing music is an endless timeline.
Process could be called Object Oriented Composing. Composing object is a phrase and by experimenting on different ways to repeat, shuffle, harmonize and combine all those different results some of the best works were made.
Just look at the Beethoven Symphony No. 5 - Part 1. If you have enough imaginations it is obviously that Beethoven used just one short phrase by experimenting with its variations, rhythmically and harmonically.
Midilooper is in an early period and Piz must face two choices: to develop Midilooper as it is now: another robotic DJ effect or to develop a creative "brain extension" tool.
Marked for DJ tools is full, but marked for composing devices has been completely empty all the time.

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Maki, have you tried xt1.4? The midi comp, and how xt is structured, seems up your street. xt2 is still being developed as we speak.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Works great so far in Bidule. I look forward to being able to layer/overdub multiple loops.

For future features, possibly an export to .mid function?

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lowkey wrote:Maki, have you tried xt1.4? The midi comp, and how xt is structured, seems up your street. xt2 is still being developed as we speak.
The midi comp can not controll the end loop point with sustain pedal.

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well... i think this could easily become more than one thing.

i want it to have most of the options of the XT1 MIDI Part, except for the piano roll. that would be: note/cc trigger/toggle, play & mute groups, sync on/off, full release on/off, import/export midi files. i think the main limitation to the MIDI Part is that you have to use the mouse to record or change the loop area.

i'm also thinking of useful functions of audio samplers that could be applied to midi data. things like transposition (optionally within a defined key) based on what note you trigger it with, as well as polyphonic playing. also some kind of velocity sensitivity.

it's good to think of what can only be done within the plugin versus what could be done in a modular host. some functions would be convenient in the plugin, but not strictly necessary. i'm trying to prioritize my work along those lines.

i like the idea of using this as a composition tool, but i need to think about it more... how would it work, what are the limitations of current tools, how would i avoid those limitations, etc... more discussion is welcome.


anyway, i'm almost done with pattern stretching. hopefully there will be a new version later today.
wrongtastic, baby
tucson's number one gothic rock band since 1995

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shamann wrote:Works great so far in Bidule. I look forward to being able to layer/overdub multiple loops.

For future features, possibly an export to .mid function?
it can already export the original recorded data. i guess exporting the "effected" midi would be nice too.
wrongtastic, baby
tucson's number one gothic rock band since 1995

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insertpizhere wrote:i like the idea of using this as a composition tool, but i need to think about it more... how would it work, what are the limitations of current tools, how would i avoid those limitations.
As a composition tool midilooper could work as an interactive database with 16 SONGS made of 16 PARTS where every PART could store 16 midi files with every midi file on its own midi channel. Every PART could present one musical idea such are intro, strophe, refrain, ending or a fill-inn. Individual PARTS and SONGS could be loaded with just one control trigger on a programmable hardware midi controller or key matrix. This way we could easy have a setup that allows us to perform live for many hours.

Limitations of existing tools are that you can not do live midi looping as described above. Except form styles inside auto accompaniment programs. And that is how we loose interactivity because we have to make styles, save them, load them and THEN apply some looping or harmonizing. After that those midi files are encapsulated and can not be changed without stopping a session.
How to avoid those limitations? To make every loop accessible and editable without stopping a session.
Midilooper with many loops and accessible database structure fits perfectly here with better interactivity and better accessibility.

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today's version: http://thepiz.org/xt/midiLooper20071224.zip

- added preliminary loop stretching
- beat shifting was reversed, i think, so i changed it
- when stopping the host, now any playing notes will stop
- i was getting hanging notes when using beatshift in one-shot mode, so there are additional precautions now
wrongtastic, baby
tucson's number one gothic rock band since 1995

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loop stretching works fine. Thanks!

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insertpizhere wrote:well... i think this could easily become more than one thing.

i want it to have most of the options of the XT1 MIDI Part, except for the piano roll. that would be: note/cc trigger/toggle, play & mute groups, sync on/off, full release on/off, import/export midi files. i think the main limitation to the MIDI Part is that you have to use the mouse to record or change the loop area.

i'm also thinking of useful functions of audio samplers that could be applied to midi data. things like transposition (optionally within a defined key) based on what note you trigger it with, as well as polyphonic playing. also some kind of velocity sensitivity.

it's good to think of what can only be done within the plugin versus what could be done in a modular host. some functions would be convenient in the plugin, but not strictly necessary. i'm trying to prioritize my work along those lines.

i like the idea of using this as a composition tool, but i need to think about it more... how would it work, what are the limitations of current tools, how would i avoid those limitations, etc... more discussion is welcome.


anyway, i'm almost done with pattern stretching. hopefully there will be a new version later today.
I've always wanted a simple MIDI note looper/sequencer sorta like the one in the TR505's pattern sequencer. I mean one could rig eXT to pretty much do the same thing by breaking the rules a bit (seq - seq or eXTvst - eXTsa). The main downside with such high expectations in one plugin is that it can become extremely complex to work with live. This is why I keep stressing(pleading) that this stays relativly simplistic in design. Guys I know I dont speak for everyone but if you need to push the functionality of this looper, why not use what is already bulit into your sequencer and use MidiLooper as a suplimental tool to churn out quick/?live MIDI phrases? Am I wrong in thinking 100's of banks, buffers, channels and features are not the way to go here :shrug: ?

Piz, I really appreciate your efforts on this, especially over the holidays.. Thanks for the new version!

L
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timestretch works here, tkx piz

maki: maybe I am very much in yer spirit, tkx for the speech. I also believe that we dont have a tool as you started to describe it. academic-classical music is a lot about set operations on socalled motives, music theory identifies the core notes and rythmics in a piece of music. the only variation techniques we really already got in the vst world is transposition or arpeggios but a systematic and yet intuitive app to operate on midi loop information is lacking. btw: try sensomusic usine: automate loop and start points in the pianoroll, all in global sync!
-> I am with you that midilooper could be a kinda prototype for future live sequencing concepts

Lagrange:
-> I am with you too that midilooper should do a good+simple job.

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This is a really nice way to work. Very natural Thank you Piz :D

I think this is a looper in the traditional tape looper. Alot of ideas remind me of a "midi sampler". Like Shortcircuit but for midi.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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insertpizhere,

It would be really great if midilooper could manage note and also CC. This way , it could be use like an XY pad for exemple. There is one in Usine, and it's great function for live use.

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I got a groovebox riff going, and I'm d/l'ing the new host-stopping version now.
The only site for experimental amp sim freeware & MIDI FX: http://runbeerrun.blogspot.com
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCprNcvVH6aPTehLv8J5xokA -Youtube jams

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thanks for all the feedback. i'll have some comments a little later...

i uploaded a new version with some new features:

- overdub recording mode
- more quantization choices
- input quantize now keeps the note length, and only affects notes
- more stretching choices
- more loop length choices (1 bar down to 1 tick (1/960th of a beat))
- midi file is now saved per program, using program name
- midi file is opened again based on program name

http://thepiz.org/xt/midiLooper20071226.zip

i have not tested most of this very extensively. i don't know if the midi file will play the same way when you open it again in all cases. the overdub mode might be kind of weird too.

there isn't any kind of conversion to open other types of midi files, but it should be able to use files saved with 960 ticks per beat. it will only play the last track if there is more than one.
wrongtastic, baby
tucson's number one gothic rock band since 1995

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