KVR Audio

Roger you described the problem more cogently than I could with 10x more words. Thank you for contacting Bitwig.

I was not encouraged by the fact that Bitwig's response to me about this issue was basically: "well, it's the MPE spec...so....". No, it's more than that, it's a problem with the implementation and it's basically a bug as far as I am concerned. I was also not encouraged upon reading their forum (which I clearly should have before getting started on this) which indicates to me that they have received complaints about this issue for some time and have done nothing about it.

To their credit, they seem to have nicely resolved their pre 2.4 lack of midi channel sophistication, but that was also apparently, from reading their forum, an ongoing concern among many users for many years.

Given that both these issues impact the way that I use the Linnstrument on a song-to-song basis, this apparent lack of concern on their part towards these issues is not confidence-inspiring. I wonder what else is going to turn up as I dig deeper.

I will be fascinated with how they respond to your query.

Many thanks again for contacting them about this. I am hoping to make a final decision on at least how my first live Linnstrument set will be configured DAW-wise, and this information will be helpful to me. Currently I am on a lake on the edge of the Smokies with intermittent internet, so I really shouldn't be complaining about anything!

Reckon104 wrote:I was not encouraged by the fact that Bitwig's response to me about this issue was basically: "well, it's the MPE spec...so....". No, it's more than that, it's a problem with the implementation and it's basically a bug as far as I am concerned.

You can call green red if you want to... doesn't make it so. Bitwig is in fact following the MPE spec just like they said and their implementation is not a bug. It expects VST synths to also follow the MPE spec and then it works as desired.

Reckon104 wrote:To their credit, they seem to have nicely resolved their pre 2.4 lack of midi channel sophistication, but that was also apparently, from reading their forum, an ongoing concern among many users for many years.

Given that both these issues impact the way that I use the Linnstrument on a song-to-song basis, this apparent lack of concern on their part towards these issues is not confidence-inspiring. I wonder what else is going to turn up as I dig deeper.

You're assessment is too negative towards Bitwig. They have consistently improved the things that users most ask for. They don't have a lack of concern... rather it is that such improvements take time.

The lack of midi channel support was not an ongoing concern for many users. The MPE users are a decided minority. There were only a relative few of us continuing to be vocal about adding midi channel support. Fortunately, enough to get it added. I think they have done a good job and will continue to do so. They most certainly listen to users.

And in terms of modulation... Bitwig is unmatched

I understand that 48 pb is the MPE spec. However, does the spec also say that for vst instruments that, say, only support 24 pb, that you should only in fact be able to get half of that (12) with hardware MPE instruments like the Linnstrument? That seems odd to me. If it is the spec, I don't think it was a wise one to follow.

I apologize if my post feels unnecessarily negative. I am only speaking to issues that are crucial to me at this point in my use of the Linnstrument. I fully understand if these are not important to most Bitwig users. They have to run their business as they see fit and respond to issues that they see as most important to most users.

As a consumer I am simply trying to determine if my needs, which I am fully aware may be unsual, are met by this product. As I am in the final stages of preparing a live show, with the Linnstrument at its core, I feel a bit of pressure to make the decision soon, as I don't want to have to master several DAWs in a relatively short period of time.

Again, apologies for any unnecessary negativity.

To reckon:

Roger_Linn wrote:The problem I found was that it that in order to have correct pitch slides, I need to set the plug-in MPE synth's bend range to double that of LinnStrument, which seems odd. For example, I can use an external synth with a bend range of 12 if I set LinnStrument's bend range to 6. In my test I was using Roli Equator. I just wrote to BW and when I get a reply,will post it here.

By the way, LinnStrument's Bend Range can be set to any value from 1 to 96 semitones.

Reckon104 wrote:I understand that 48 pb is the MPE spec. However, does the spec also say that for vst instruments that, say, only support 24 pb, that you should only in fact be able to get half of that (12) with hardware MPE instruments like the Linnstrument? That seems odd to me. If it is the spec, I don't think it was a wise one to follow.

I apologize if my post feels unnecessarily negative. I am only speaking to issues that are crucial to me at this point in my use of the Linnstrument. I fully understand if these are not important to most Bitwig users. They have to run their business as they see fit and respond to issues that they see as most important to most users.

As a consumer I am simply trying to determine if my needs, which I am fully aware may be unsual, are met by this product. As I am in the final stages of preparing a live show, with the Linnstrument at its core, I feel a bit of pressure to make the decision soon, as I don't want to have to master several DAWs in a relatively short period of time.

Again, apologies for any unnecessary negativity.

If a VST supports MPE, but only has a PB range of +/-24 then set the Linnstrument to PB of 12... you will get the correct amount of PB. So if you slide up 5 semi-tones it will be 5 semi-tones. The limitation is that with Linnstrument set to 12, you only get 1 octave of range, but that is fine for the majority of cases.

It is up to the VST developers to add the +/-48 option so their synths are also meeting the spec. Everyone needs to do their part. U-he is doing this. Hive, Diva and RePro all now have the 48 setting. Bazille and ACE will be next. Zebra 3 will be MPE capable and will also have the 48 range. Eventually all the developers will get there. In the meanwhile...

My advice is don't worry too much about perfection. There are always practical limitations. The MPE stuff works well enough in Bitwig (2.4 with midi channel support) or in Logic or Cubase to accomplish anything you want. There are a lot of other things to consider in picking a DAW.

I was just trying Bitwig 2.4 Beta 2 and I found that you can set the Bitwig PB range to something other than 48. Either they just added that in the second beta, or it was also in the first beta and unnoticed.

So that limitation is resolved!

EDIT: Yes... just checked the changelog... being able to set PB range was added in 2.4 beta 2... per device between 12-96

I have a sneaking suspicion we have Roger to thank for this! So...thank you Roger for being so incredibly responsive and supportive!

And thank you Bitwig! Frankly, I'm not used to this kind of quick resolution of issues. Very impressive and appreciated. And you have certainly shut me up in the best possible way!

Apologies for taking over this thread, but it has been extremely helpful to me and I appreciate all the input. So thanks to everyone!

I am really looking forward to digging in to Bitwig now. I'm not expecting perfection, but now that I have these basic issues taken care of I am expecting to have a lot of fun with this software.

Now I'll go back to lurking.

Thanks, Reckon, but though I did email with the Bitwig guys, I merely learned that this was their intention. But I didn't want to say anything yet because I wasn't sure when it would get into a beta release. Yes, the Bitwig guys are very responsive, care about what they're doing and are extraordinarily talented coders. I have yet to try out beta 2 but will in the coming days.

As a way to bring closure to my participation on this topic: I have tested the beta and it works great, very intuitively implemented as well, which is something I love about Bitwig generally.

Bitwig is now an MPE/Linnstrument powerhouse DAW as far as I can tell.

Exciting times.

I guess I can now remove the question mark from the subject line!

It’s great to hear the PB range is now flexible. I need to download the latest beta.

I Just payed the subscription to try the beta everything now works as it should with the linnstrument. Very good.

Only issue I have is with BW setting the Linnstrument pitchbend range to 1 when it inits it!

Roger_Linn wrote:To reckon:

Roger_Linn wrote:The problem I found was that it that in order to have correct pitch slides, I need to set the plug-in MPE synth's bend range to double that of LinnStrument, which seems odd. For example, I can use an external synth with a bend range of 12 if I set LinnStrument's bend range to 6. In my test I was using Roli Equator. I just wrote to BW and when I get a reply,will post it here.

By the way, LinnStrument's Bend Range can be set to any value from 1 to 96 semitones.

After testing here this seems related to the PB setting you set for the device in BW.

For example with linnstrument at 48, diva at 48 I have to set the device in BW to be 24. I have contacted BW who said it was a problem with the linnstrument as the onscreen BW keyboard works fine!

I sent back a reply saying maybe they should test with a hardware midi device and I had checked the pitchbend from the linnstrument at 2048 for an octave and BW is off. Had no reply since then.

I do wonder if they actually test with actual hardware.

Most of the Bitwig guys are on vacation now, which many in Europe do during August. So I don't expect responses until early September.

In my comment above I was testing 2.4 beta 1, but I haven't yet tested the new 2.4 beta 2 of Bitwig because my beta license ran out and I haven't heard back from them yet with the license extension. But I thought they had put in a fix in beta 2.

Using beta 2 here, the problem is still there. Pretty sure it will be fixed though...