Fathom Synth Development Thread

[FathomSynth]

OK, I'm open to the idea of having a backup email.

Trickky-Loops, I know you are trying to help but you have to understand what ever mechanism we use, just imagine a hacker using it to get their own data into the system. If all they need is your name or email and they can do it then rest assured we can not use that mechanism no matter how convenient it might be for normal users.

The only way to prevent this is a response from the original email since that can not be faked. That is why I have been very clear that I'm happy to change someone's email as long as they give me a head's up from the original email first.

We already have a user membership mechanism in the Fathom web site forum thread. The reason I don't use that for licensing is because it is not verified by the purchase email. Any membership data entered would have to be verified by the original email anyway otherwise any hacker can just enter it. If the data needs to be verified by the original email then we might as well just use the original email anyway. Do you see the logic?

Sometimes it is hard for me to explain something if there is a very fundamental basic concept which people don't understand. The ONLY way to know if a user is legit is if the data is transmitted from the original email otherwise a hacker will just do the exact same thing using only your name or email. It's that simple. If this is the case then you can see that an extra membership mechanism is pointless since it would need to be verified by the original email anyway. And it is actually much simpler just to use the original email than adding on a more complex system of membership which would be impossible without being verified by the original email the first place.

At least you are not here trying help so I am willing to work with you.

For those of you who come in here and make general statements insulting the project with absolutely no specific information I can use to improve it I have only this to say (Tricky-Loops this is not directed at you but only at someone who would try to make a public spectacle of leaving the project).

I have been working 16 hours a day six days a week for six years straight without a break to constantly make Fathom better and if you read back through the over 300 pages of this thread you will see that I make every attempt to use suggestions from users more than almost any other developer currently on Earth. For years people begged me for an installer and now they have it. Yet you still find a reason to complain. The license install is a one button press and of the thousands of people now using it I have not had a single complaint, at least not from anyone who bothered to actually try it. And when I tell you that I won't let anyone take your account from you based on a random email you find this one minute detail as a reason to claim that the entire process is flawed. I just spent the last six months writing a licensing system from scratch instead of using that time to add audio features, yet still you find a reason to complain. It is you who are being unprofessional. You come into this thread to spread your bad attitude instead of emailing me directly with a request or positive suggestion like the thousands of other users who have supplied suggestions now implemented in the code.

If you are going to come in here and insult the project with six years of constant development behind it because you can't handle the simple task of keeping your email from being closed or because you have a problem running an installer with one button to press then there is absolutely nothing I can do to help you. If your attitude is that immature and hostile toward the project then yes, by all means, leave and don't ever come back.

It is no secret that Fathom is geared to serious sound designers not casual preset browsers and after five years and 300 pages you have not figured this out yet?

If you had made a specific suggestion or emailed my support line directly I would have a different attitude. But to suggest that you are unwilling to use a product with six years of development behind it because you have found one detail in the membership process you don't like and which you could not even take the trouble to explain in a way that I could fix, is just plain sick. If this is your attitude then I assure you there is not a rat's chance in the Sahara that you will be able to use a plugin as complex as Fathom anyway.

If you threaten to storm off and leave a project based on some undefined confusion you have with running an single program and pressing a single button then what snowball's chance in hades is there that you are going to be able to use a plugin with a user manual over 200 pages long?

And before you ever accuse this project of being unprofessional again ask yourself how many products you use which are supported by a company which reads and responds to their KVR forum thread every day and who answer their support email within minutes?

Or perhaps you would prefer I spend another two months tweaking the upgrade process to your satisfaction instead of adding spectral video card processing. Maybe our ten thousand users would be interested to hear your explanation for that.

For those of you who are here in this thread to try to make a positive contribution to the project the next version 3.2 will have a software upgrade page added to the settings. You can press a single button and Fathom will ping the server and find out if there is a later version available. If there is then the server will respond and Fathom's upgrade page will show the download link along with a button to copy it to the clipboard for easy download.

[Tricky-Loops]

Just another short question: why not using serial numbers, tied to the real name and not the email address?

The installer installs a key in the registry?

Melda Production, just as an example, uses the (postal) ADDRESS in their license files. With the effect that I now have license files with 3 different addresses because I had to move every few years. That's not ideal, either.

Better if someone had to choose an user name and a password and gets a serial number (because that doesn't change).

For example, I may have moved 4 times since I made my account at KVR, but I can still login as "Tricky Loops" and the password. I couldn't even change it.

[FathomSynth]

Because your email is in fact your serial number tied to your real name. It just so happens to also be the one thing you would be least likely to misplace or forget.

Think about it logically. The only way you would give someone a key to your house if you can't see them face to face is for them to show you the original key you gave them. When you buy a product your email is the only way that product is supplied to you. It is the original key. Any other key you suggest no matter how friendly it may appear to you is only a copy of the original key. I know you are trying to help but making two of something does not make it simpler, it only makes it twice as complicated.

That being said I'm willing to consider your idea of a backup email since it could be sent from the original email and is therefore verified. This would essentially be the same as an account rescue option offered by most companies.

[Tricky-Loops]

When I lost the account at my website provider, I lost all my @tricky-loops.de email addresses (one of them I used for purchasing audio stuff). So I couldn't have written another email from the original email address as everything was locked!

Now I have to write many emails to a dozen of developers that many years ago I bought plugins and other software with my @tricky-loops.de email which is gone now and hope they find some data in their servers and tell them my new email address.

That's a lot of work and could be made easier.

[vurt]

When I lost the account at my website provider, I lost all my @tricky-loops.de email addresses (one of them I used for purchasing audio stuff). So I couldn't have written another email from the original email address as everything was locked!

Now I have to write many emails to a dozen of developers that many years ago I bought plugins and other software with my @tricky-loops.de email which is gone now and hope they find some data in their servers and tell them my new email address.

assuming you purchased with paypal? would there be a receipt in the archives there?

because then, you could email a copy of the receipt from the new mail address? would this be satisfactory for both parties here if possible?

[Tricky-Loops]

When I lost the account at my website provider, I lost all my @tricky-loops.de email addresses (one of them I used for purchasing audio stuff). So I couldn't have written another email from the original email address as everything was locked!

Now I have to write many emails to a dozen of developers that many years ago I bought plugins and other software with my @tricky-loops.de email which is gone now and hope they find some data in their servers and tell them my new email address.

assuming you purchased with paypal? would there be a receipt in the archives there?

because then, you could email a copy of the receipt from the new mail address? would this be satisfactory for both parties here if possible?

No because a few years I couldn't use PayPal anymore because I couldn't change the bank data after an update. I had to create a new account. Now they changed owner a few times and made another 50 updates and finally I can use the new account again. But the old purchase history is gone. At least now PayPal works again like a charm.

[vurt]

When I lost the account at my website provider, I lost all my @tricky-loops.de email addresses (one of them I used for purchasing audio stuff). So I couldn't have written another email from the original email address as everything was locked!

Now I have to write many emails to a dozen of developers that many years ago I bought plugins and other software with my @tricky-loops.de email which is gone now and hope they find some data in their servers and tell them my new email address.

assuming you purchased with paypal? would there be a receipt in the archives there?

because then, you could email a copy of the receipt from the new mail address? would this be satisfactory for both parties here if possible?

No because a few years I couldn't use PayPal anymore because I couldn't change the bank data after an update. I had to create a new account. Now they changed owner a few times and made another 50 updates and finally I can use the new account again. But the old purchase history is gone. At least now PayPal works again like a charm.

dammit! stop having such bad luck with interweb stuff.
youre making this very difficult!

sorry, i have no other ideas, hope you can all come to some compromise, good luck.

[Tricky-Loops]

The less problems I have with companies with an account to login with password. At Image-Line, for example, there are still all my bought products in my account and I could login and change the email address (and can download the newest versions).

That's why accounts are the best solution!

[paterpeter]

...

Ok, let me be more constructive (even though I'm sure I'm just repeating part posts from other users)

All I'm asking for is a user area that
- shows the currently owned licenses
- shows a purchase history
- provides an automatic system to purchase the discounted Pro upgrade
- allows for basic self care functionality, such a changing the associated e-mail address*

I don't even need automatic shop integration as long as the license is added to my account once.

*Of course the last point would require the user to validate the change through the old email address. But it's a simple automatic process that takes a minute to perform instead of going through email support.

Apparently you do not see the importance of such a basic set of functions. That's ok. But I can't get rid of the feeling that Seaweed Audio is basically "a nerdy workaholic with a business based on an excellent product and an Excel sheet for bookkeeping". And that feeling keeps me from investing more. And I wonder "ok, why doesn't he invest the ~100 hours I'd estimate for a solid user area? Will he be able to keep a sustainable business in the long run? Is my money well invested?"

And on another note: please take better care of yourself. You serve nobody if you're suffering from a burn out in the long run. You repeat that you're working 16 hrs a day as if that's something positive or impressive. It's not. It's unreasonable and dangerous. It's great that you are committed, but you need to keep yourself healthy to enjoy the fruits of your effort.

[FathomSynth]

All paypal receipts are the same. That strikes me as the easiest possible way that a hacker could take your account.

Again, the stumbling block here is that you assume I have a magic crystal ball I can look into and know that it is you who are requesting that your product be moved to another email. Imagine how you would feel if you tried to update your software and you found out I gave your account to someone else simply because they gave me your name and your old email? Do you really want me to do this?

What happens if you forget your google password. They send a confirmation to your gmail account. Right? Do you know why they do that? Think about it. What if Google gave your email account to someone who sent them an email saying "hey, I'm Joe Smith, I promise I'm an honest person, now can you please just give me this person's Google account to me"? How would that work? Would you ever use gmail if you knew Google would do this?

You think I'm doing this because I want to be strict. No! It has nothing to do with that. This is simple logic.

You can only have one of two systems.

1. Accounts are given away to anyone who asks for it from a different email or send me a receipt that looks right.

2. Accounts are not given away and users have to be responsible for keeping their own email.

Is there even a question here?

You think this is a tough policy but it has nothing to do with being strict. It is a simple question of identity. When you send me an email claiming to be you then you know it is you and you think, how can anyone doubt that I am "me". You think I know that it is you, I DONT!!! I have no way of knowing that it is YOU. !!!

You are not considering the basic fact that if I allow you to change your email from another email it is EXACTLY what a hacker will do to take your account. And I will have absolutely now way of knowing it. Then you will try to update your software and find out your product is gone.

I think there is a basic logical fact here that one of us is not seeing. We keep going around in circles. You say, but it's really me, why can't you just believe me and give my account to a different email, but you are assuming that everyone knows it is you. WE DON'T.

We don't know it is you. It could be any joe hacker who has your name.

I don't know how to explain this to you. I'm not the FBI. I don't have a secret camera in your house to watch you type the email so I can say, ah, this is the real Joe Smith and not someone trying to steal his account. The ONLY way to know is if you send me the email from the same one used to purchase the product. I simply don't know how to explain this to you.

The only other way is if I personally carry a copy of Fathom to your house and knock on your door and give it to you face to face like FedEx. Then you could call me back and say in person, hey man, it's me and I'm changing my email.

You are simply not understanding what I am trying to explain. This is not some lack of trust on my part. If you send me an email from a different email you are literally NOT the same person. You may think you are but to everyone else on Earth you might send that email to you are NOT. Think about it. No one has any way of knowing that both emails came from the same human being unless they were sitting next to them when they wrote it.

Also, why is this a problem?

Every other account system for every other product on Earth works the same way. I can't just write an email to your bank account and say, "hey there guys, it's me, don't worry I'm an honest person, I just forgot my old email, so I'm giving you the new email and also I have some changes to my account such as a new password which I also forgot, oh and after that I'll be routing all my funds to a different account". Seriously? Would you really open a bank account with a bank that would do this? We're going around in circles here, what am I missing?

[paterpeter]

If you referring to me: I already said that obviously you need to confirm a change of email address through the original address - I'm with you here, how else should it be done. With a user area it's easy to implement. It's the "don't but if you intend to change your email address" and the manual support process that drives me away.

[FathomSynth]

paterpeter, Maybe you are just not aware of how rude you are being. I'm a little unclear on why you think I would be willing to make massive changes for you after you insult me and the entire project. Why not just ask like a normal person. In addition please clarify why you are publishing your disapproval for the project for everyone to see in this thread instead of just emailing me directly. This is not an accident and you are doing it intentionally. Also you say quite clearly that you are so disgusted, something about nails in the coffin, that you are leaving the project forever, and yet you are back here the very next minute with a list of feature requests. Wow, you really have some nerve. Did the thought occur to you that just after I spent six months delivering to everyone the installer they were asking for that the only thing at this point which is making the project look unprofessional is your profoundly rude posts? You make a specific, malicious and calculated attempt to publicly humiliate the entire project with your posts and the next instant deliver a list of suggestions. Forgive me if I prioritize requests made by people who show some appreciation for the product over those who are rude and insulting.

[Tricky-Loops]

In most cases when I buy software, I have to create an account. And these systems became more and more in the last years. Melda Production didn't have accounts 6 years ago, now it suddenly has but I haven't even created one, although I have bought a dozens of plugins by Melda Production and still have the licenses (have to write a long email with all the plugins I have). (I wasn't here at KVR for 5 years, so I didn't see every change. Now I have a new computer and look for new plugins again and have to update all my bought plugins to 64 Bit.)

Same with Applied Acoustics Systems - they didn't have any accounts 6 years ago, now they have. At least I got the email problems sorted thanks to email contact with the founder, and both many years ago bought plugins are in my new created account now. (Huge thanks to Marc-Pierre Verge for even weekend-service! )

So if account systems are becoming more and more, they seem to offer advantages to developers - they wouldn't introduce account systems only to have more work and make everything twice complicated.

It's just a suggestion to improve things. It's not even a request. It's up to you to think about it why more and more developers prefer account systems (or to ask them here) and either you make such a system or not (and of course it takes some time but then afterwards it might be less work).

[paterpeter]

paterpeter, Maybe you are just not aware of how rude you are being. I'm a little unclear on why you think I would be willing to make massive changes for you after you insult me and the entire project. Why not just ask like a normal person. In addition please clarify why you are publishing your disapproval for the project for everyone to see in this thread instead of just emailing me directly. This is not an accident and you are doing it intentionally. Also you say quite clearly that you are so disgusted, something about nails in the coffin, that you are leaving the project forever, and yet you are back here the very next minute with a list of feature requests. Wow, you really have some nerve. Did the thought occur to you that just after I spent six months delivering to everyone the installer they were asking for that the only thing at this point which is making the project look unprofessional is your profoundly rude posts? You make a specific, malicious and calculated attempt to publicly humiliate the entire project with your posts and the next instant deliver a list of suggestions. Forgive me if I prioritize requests made by people who show some appreciation for the product over those who are rude and insulting.

Please relax a bit and try not to feel so offended.
- I'm not insulting anybody or anything. Instead, I already said your product is great and that I'm concerned about your personal health and the sustainability of your business if you keep working so hard.
- Also, I did not say I'm abandoning your project forever, just until you implement a user are.
- You said I wasn't constructive, so I specified precisely what it is I'm missing. Yet, apparently I'm making inappropriate feature request now.
- The nail in the coffin refers to the exact wording of the quoted post ("Yes, that's correct, definitely don't buy it if you are planning on changing your email.") and the fact that practically everything related to the "bureaucratic" part of Fathom is and has been in some way convoluted and has to go through your support mail. Yes, I know it's so easy your pet bunny gets it done. But it's far from industry standard and what I have come to expect nowadays. For a $15 product, I could live with it, but if you're playing in the $100+ league I'm just expecting more.
- I wasn't aware that criticism towards your project may only be expressed in emails

Maybe there's something lost in translation, but I'm far from trying to humiliate your project. Feel free to run it any way you like. Again, I've not abandoned it nor do I wish anything bad, I'm just not going to invest further until it sticks to basic industry and e-commerce standards. I would be seriously puzzled if I'm alone with my opinion, but who knows.

[carrieres]

Everett don't be so sensitive !
Why can't you change my email account if i send you a poof of purchase from another email account ?