Diva vs Analogue - a real world test

[hakey]

It is an objective, concrete proof that there is no objective, concrete comparison between real analog electronics and supposed software "models".

Statements of the 'there's no comparison' type are subjective statements, not objective, concrete proofs.

(how about we move this discussion/derailment into your xhip thread?)

[Locus M]

One produces silence, the other produces a signal you can hear.

Interesting debate (though not for anything related to music)

Shock horror - we didn't purely rely on objective measurements, we used our ears

Is a perfect emulation one that model each component "perfectly" (and is this possible?) or do we have to rely on our ears for perfection?

I actually wonder whether these patches made here ( great work) would be reproductive as anything but "presets". E.g. If I take one of these (with or without the added noise) and start to tweak them on the fly, will that be physically and perceptually reproductive for the behavior of OB8? DIVA does not have a dedicated OB8 module as far as I know or what?

[Gamma-UT]

Is a perfect emulation one that model each component "perfectly" (and is this possible?) or do we have to rely on our ears for perfection?

The point of tuning by ear is to avoid having to model each and every effect down to the nearest molecule - in the interest of not having to run the emulation on a supercomputer. It's not about perfection. It's about being 'good enough'. What's good enough for one person might not be enough for another. But...

I actually wonder whether these patches made here ( great work) would be reproductive as anything but "presets". E.g. If I take one of these (with or without the added noise) and start to tweak them on the fly, will that be physically and perceptually reproductive for the behavior of OB8? DIVA does not have a dedicated OB8 module as far as I know or what?

I'd lay money on the result being not so much like an OB8. Does that matter? Is your interest in making a sound you like or which fits a given context or on some measure of authenticity that is only satisfied by sounds that can be made on an OB8? If it's the latter, I'd say you probably either need a slap upside the head and should really knuckle down to the sound design thing or simply be a collector, bite the bullet and go buy the darn hardware.

Want a sound like crossover distortion? Go make something that sounds like it. That's what synthesis is about: making sounds that sound like things or evoke the same response. That seems to have been lost by some people because of some demand to be authentic.

[braj]

Is OP-X Pro 2 still being sold? I still use that in jBridge but I love it. Sometimes the answer may be using a synth that is directly trying to model the vintage synth you are looking to ape. But then I wouldn't mind Obi modules in Diva

[braj]

I remember when the OBs were in the store when they were new, I would go to the local music stores that had the best synths plugged in and just drool at the Oberheims. They made me feel something like a starship captain.

[SWAN808]

I actually wonder whether these patches made here ( great work) would be reproductive as anything but "presets". E.g. If I take one of these (with or without the added noise) and start to tweak them on the fly, will that be physically and perceptually reproductive for the behavior of OB8? DIVA does not have a dedicated OB8 module as far as I know or what?

do you basically mean can the OB8 copy a Diva sound? I'd be interested to look at that...I think so long as you keep the architecture related I think you might be suprised...

[aciddose]

It is an objective, concrete proof that there is no objective, concrete comparison between real analog electronics and supposed software "models".

Statements of the 'there's no comparison' type are subjective statements, not objective, concrete proofs. )

No, this is an objective, concrete statement.

Here we have it:

Does the plug-in produce a signal:

• Yes
• No

Choose one.

Does the analog circuit produce a signal:

• Yes
• No

Choose one.

Do the two boolean (true or false) values match?

If not, these two objects have been proven different.

What would be subjective is if I were to attempt to argue "how important" this is.

I will not do such a thing because ...



... I do not possess a large swollen brain more powerful than most which would enable me to do so.

[aciddose]

Why/Because I'll tell you why: Regardless of the measurement of the signal when present, if the signal is present on one side and not present on the other in this comparison the relative difference between the two is infinite.

It is not possible to measure the scale of the two when the difference between the two is infinite.

We can simply say on one side the signal is present, on the other it is not present.

Present = 100%
Not present = 0%.

There is no way to normalize these values with only a single value!

[Frantz]

Imperfect models are used all the time: CGI in movies, weather forecasts, economic models, etc. A thing does not need to be perfect in order for it to be useful.

Brian swelling could explain a lot. Seek medical attention immediately.

[Locus M]

do you basically mean can the OB8 copy a Diva sound? I'd be interested to look at that...I think so long as you keep the architecture related I think you might be suprised...

It might be related to my question and would be an interesting quest. What I meant was whether your patches would behave the same way on Diva as if you tweaked them them on the OB8, e.g. I open the cut off up to half on Diva. Does the sweep sound the same as If I opened the OB8's filter up to half?

And @Gamma-UT. Before you start to slap me (sounds kinky BTW) please note my prefix that I do not find this discussion relevant to music. It is from a theoretical point and couriosity only.

[Gamma-UT]

And @Gamma-UT. Before you start to slap me (sounds kinky BTW) please note my prefix that I do not find this discussion relevant to music. It is from a theoretical point and couriosity only.

That's why you need a slap!

But even from a theoretical standpoint, I think it's worth stepping back and asking "why do this?" Is the aim of the emulation to get the precise behaviour of another object or simply to get the characteristics that people find attractive in that object?

[SWAN808]

do you basically mean can the OB8 copy a Diva sound? I'd be interested to look at that...I think so long as you keep the architecture related I think you might be suprised...

It might be related to my question and would be an interesting quest. What I meant was whether your patches would behave the same way on Diva as if you tweaked them them on the OB8, e.g. I open the cut off up to half on Diva. Does the sweep sound the same as If I opened the OB8's filter up to half?

youd have to expect it would be very similar although exactly the same Im not sure...I might try when I get back to London...but its true that people report the experience of using Diva is not 'quite' the same in terms of sound as with an analogue and I have to admit I feel similar. What I do know is you can get very close with Diva when you emulate and record to audio.

[Locus M]

Denial that this effect (silence vs. signal) is significant is not possible. You must concede that in this situation there is absolutely no comparison.

The difference is as large as possible.

How can it be significant if you simultanously claim that you have no subjective access to this difference?

Why/because I'll tell you why: The reason is that you don't have the ability to hear the difference and assess it subjectively in a reliable way even when it is relatively significant. Relatively significant as in the difference between 16-bit and 8-bit.

Significant for what then?

Is this not the same as saying that it perceptually doesn't matter? After all, emulations are about making one synth sound as closely to another. Unless you claim that the difference in question has an audible effect I do not see the point. The sound of synths are at least about something we perceive, thus you also posted an example where you appeal to our hearing and not various means of translating this difference into visual representations, component schematics etc.

[wagtunes]

This has now become the stupidest debate I have ever been a part of on any forum I have ever been a member of in my entire life and that is saying something as an 18 year veteran of the Internet.

I concede that on a physical level, Diva and OB 8 are absolutely different. We can do many scientific tests that prove this beyond any doubt, as Acid has shown us.

So what?

Who cares?

The person listening to the recorded music is not going to care nor are they going to be able to tell the difference with 100% certainty. The test done on this very thread proves that beyond any shadow of a doubt.

In a real world MUSICAL application, all of these technical "show me the waveforms, specs, whatever" is meaningless

You prefer the OB 8? Use the OB 8.

You prefer Diva? Use Diva.

You like them both? Use both.

But for the love of God can we stop with all this stupidity?

[hakey]

Feel free to continue the debate in AD's Xhip thread.