Muton Beta 3

[pljones]

Live playing seems pretty good still except I'm now getting occasional glitching (i.e. the audio engine seems to freeze and I get noise out instead of what the synth I'm playing should be producing). It doesn't appear to relate to other system activity and doesn't happen under Muzys 3.14 (although I'm not using an identical effects chain -- so it could be one of the effects). Its as I'm getting CPU spikes.

[jinnan_tonnix]

Suggestions:
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When attempting to modify the length of a group of notes, the options available are Absolute, Relative & Procentual.
There's no option to cancel. Undo works, of course, but suggest a cancel button?
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Suggest changing the word "Procentual" to "Percent" as this is the more common term.
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File->New session and File->Open sesssion does not prompt you to save your work. You could lose work this way.
---

[jinnan_tonnix]

Bug2:
Zoom vertically so that you can't fit all four tracks vertically without scrolling. i.e. you can see three tracks and half the fourth track.
Try and draw a sequence into the bottom track (track 4)
The draw function seems to draw the sequence into the track ABOVE the current cursor position. ie. into track 3 when trying to draw into track 4.
It's now impossible to draw into track 4.

In fact, if you choose the top track, the grey box is drawn in the transport area.
Zooming out does not fix it.

OK, this is a bit difficult to reproduce, but I've got got the 'recipe':
Do this:

1. Open a new session
2. Click the Zoom-in (+) tool 5 times
3. Use the right-hand scroll bar to scroll the window to the bottom, so track 4 is visible.
4. Attempt to draw a sequence onto track 4. It appears in the track above.

3.

[jinnan_tonnix]

Some effects (e.g. Kjaerhus Audio's Classic Delay) list their programs correctly in the program's list box. So clicking the list box will show programs like 'Old tape', 'Short Analog' and so on.

Other effects (like Endorphin and Freeverb Too) do not list their programs. Instead, they list Program1, Program2 etc. But clicking the left and right arrow to change the programs lists the program names correctly.

It seems that for some effects, the available program names are not listed in the program selector menu.

(Hope this makes sense; if not tell me)

[audiojunkie]

OK, in my first attempt, I saw some really strange video glitching, which I've been able to reproduce. However, I did not run it on my OS that has ASIO, so I need to install MUTON on it and check to see if that has anything to do with it. I'll do this and check again and report back.

--Sean

[pljones]

Not sure if any of these have been reported/dealt with before.

In the list editor
a) the columns are initially too narrow - you can't see the values in the fields.
b) the value in "Length" is centred in the remaining space, rather than the space under the heading.
c) I'm in two minds about whether Value 2 should be a Float or an Integer.
d) I can't assign the Player for an event - should I be able to? (Neither the track nor the part had a player assigned.)

Eek, managed to crash it and lose the diagnostics. I was in the piano roll editor, changing the length of an existing note (having just set the player for the part).

[Calum]

I have been having problems running beta 2 and beta 3 on OSX 10.4.5 (iMac 2 GHz G5 with 1Gb RAM). No sound at all from VST instruments in beta 2 and play button does not seem to work in beta 3. It's possible I may be doing something really stupid but I did not have these problems with beta 1. All my other audio apps are working. Let me know if you require more info.Calum

Calum,

Are you sure you properly chose a core audio device?

Go to Edit menu : Audio Setup;

This gives a list of the available core audio devices;

Choose one!

If no audio device is connected, then this will typically result in the play button not responding.

Could it be that?

Yes, thanks Jo that did the trick. I only have built in audio so there were no options to choose. A few observations from my limited time spent on Beta 3 (OSX);

1. Cursor defaults to pencil tool when it is over a part. I have to reselect the arrow cursor every time I want to select or move a part.

2. It looks like I have to load a VST synth or create a new midi player before I record midi or create a new midi part. Once the midi part is created there does not appear to be an obyious way to change the instrument for that part. You mention right clicking on parts for more options but many Mac users only have a one button mouse and I cannot find an equivalent keyboard shortcut.

3. I have had a few crashes loading midi files and also when trying out VST effects on an audio track.

4. Took a while to figure out that the return button took me back from the sequence editer to the composer. Not sure that this is intuitive when you have to double-click on a part to perform the opposite function.

5. Cannot find a way to delete a part.

6. I really like the way you can have different midi/instrument combinations on the same track but If you combine midi and audio parts in the same track you only here the audio parts.

Calum

[fycfung]

The one further addition that I think would make the interface perfect in my mind would be to have a click-and-release on a note delete that note (kind of like toggling on a drum machine). Right now click-and-release doesn't do anything, so it wouldn't be displacing any function. If you accidentally clicked on a note, the perhaps you could drag it slightly and then back before releasing, and then it wouldn't be deleted. That would (for me anyway) almost eliminate the need to switch to the eraser. (Perhaps, if you think some people don't like that, you could add it as a user-toggleable option in some preferences panel or something.)

The click-and-release thing doesn't sound intuitive for me, i mean, i think users can be unhappily surprised by it.

But i do understand that you want an all-in-1 tool!

So i'll keep on thinking on that; And hey, if you have another idea for this, shout it out!

I must confess, I still have yet to make Muton make any notes at all, though. I was running on a Dell Dimension 4550 under XP with a SB Live Value OEM, and I tried ASIO4ALL but it kept crashing.

Do other audio applications run well with this asio4all configuration on that computer?
And is that with exactly the same setup?

Then I went to a Dell Inspiron 8000 running XP with a SB Audigy 2 ZS PCMCIA, and I tried using all three of the ASIO drivers (Creative ASIO and the 2 Audigy ASIOs) and nothing made any sounds under Muton (no VSTs, no MIDI; and I could only get the GS Wavetable synth as an option).

If you use these asio drivers (one by one), does Muton's Play Button work, i.e. does Muton start playing, and start moving the position line?

Also: Do other audio applications run well with the specific ASIO driver on that computer?

ASIO4ALL didn't work either. The only thing I got to play was the metronome, it let out a crackling noise on the beat. However, it was quite irregular; by the 4th/5th measure, it was slowing down and then catching up.

Same question but in this case: Do other audio applications run well with this asio4all configuration on the Dell Inspiron 8000?

I noted some oddities; when trying to install the CM-101 VSTi, when I tried to add a patch, it wouldn't "take"; it just kept listing all the patches as empty.

True, there seems to be a bug there

Will be resolved asap!

When I tried to change audio drivers while a MIDI file was playing, it crashed.
When I tried to exit without saving, it crashed.

I suspect these things are more related to the ASIO problems mentioned above.

So let's first research the above issues step by step and let's try to get a solid sound out of your computer(s).

Cheers,

Jo

Thanks for all the tips, Jo! I confess I have still not figured it out. I tried ASIO4ALL on yet another computer, my Inspiron 700m, both with the ASIO kX drivers for my Audigy 2 ZS Notebook and with ASIO4ALL on top of kX, no luck. And I tried it with ASIO4ALL on my on-board sound, no luck. All three of those worked OK with, say, FL Studio. ASIO4ALL doesn't seem to give me any available MIDI players when I try to create one in Mutools. ANd when I try with a VSTi I get silence. I haven't tried with an audio clip directly. When I had ASIO4ALL and kX for the Audigy, the play button would not work for ASIO4ALL, but it did move for the kX (but gave no sound). For on-board audio, the play button moved the bar for ASIO4ALL but no sound came out.

(On the Dimension 4550, ASIO4ALL doesn't work at all with any application on top of the Creative drivers that I have, it seems....) Maybe I'm just doing something silly, I don't know whether this is Mutools-specific or some general config problem.

If anyone has any general advice on other ways to test/debug an ASIO configuration, I'd be glad to hear it!

Regarding the click-and-release to delete, it would be great to hear if other people out there have an opinion on it. I first saw it in Anvil Studio (available free from www.anvilstudio.com, maybe people will want to try it out to see what I'm fussing about all the time) and frankly, every other program I try, the first thing I check is to see if it has an entry interface that supports that. (Right now I can't think of any other piano rolls that I've tried that do that; it seems more common in drum sequencers.) Also, it plays the note that I lay down right at the time when I lay it down. So, if I'm clicking along, I can almost be "picking at the instrument" while laying down the track with my mouse, and if it doesn't sound right, I can just click-off the mistaken note and then click-on a higher or lower note until it sounds right. Maybe it's just because that's how I pick out a tune on a keyboard; when I stumble, I kind of "search" for the right note, and being able to do that in real-time without switching tools to the eraser really lets me flow.

Of course, that's just my (possibly highly atypical?) style of working to lay down something with a mouse, but anyway, the thought of a program out there that supports it, and VSTi's and etc., is too exciting for me not to try my best to make my case for it.

Thanks so much for all your hard work on this!
Francis

[> DiGiT <]

first time ive had a look into this at length... ive been working a lot lately.

this one seems to have more trouble getting through my plugin directory than beta 2.

no crashes or complaints, but a suggestion: allow lassoing of multiple track mute buttons? how about a solo option?

[warp x]

Just an observation: it's great to read such a contructive thread here on KVR!
Keep it up

[> DiGiT <]

when you enable hotkeys, i guess itll be easier to just press 't' or something for toolkit or 'd' for duplicate part.

is there a chance you could make the playback start position the same as the last place you put it manually? like i have to place the cursor at the 4th bar if i want playback to start from there. and if not all the time, is there a way to choose in what situation this behavior would apply?

is the 2 send limit a muton free limitation?

oh and great 'classic' skin! i feel at home in muton now!

altogether a charming product. i cant wait for more cool stuff!

[jinnan_tonnix]

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In composition window, pressing Shift with a mouse-click on the track's speaker icon solos that track. That's great.

I can't find a quick way of 'unsoloing' the track - switching all tracks back on again with one click. Perhaps there's another keyboad-mouse combination I've missed?

Two ideas:
1. Shift& mouse-click toggles the track between solo and normal play, rather than just solo.

2. There's a little grey square above the tracks and left of the time bar which isn't used. Maybe put a green speaker icon here, so when you click this, all tracks play/go green?
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[jinnan_tonnix]

I've just noticed, in the LooxVoidex skin, there's a rewind and fast forward button! How come this doesn't show in the default skin?
Tip for everyone, right-clicking the digital counter returns the position to the start (bar 1.1)

[jinnan_tonnix]

Serious bug in File Browser:
If you save a composition file to the root folder of a drive (e.g. C:\ or H:\), it appears to save the file, but it does not and your work will be lost.
---

Suggestion for File Browser:
A 'New Folder' button would be nice.

[jinnan_tonnix]

Track naming bug:
When you click a track name, the correct name of the track is not shown in the editing field if you have created several more tracks and scrolled down.

For example.
Create 8 tracks.
Call track 1 'Piano'
Call track 2 'Bass'
Zoom in sufficiently to require scrolling to see the bottom few tracks.
Scroll down to the bottom.
Click on the TOP track of the current view (e.g. track 4 or 5) and it will show 'Piano'
Edit this, call it 'Overdriven lute' or something
Track *1* will now be called 'Overdriven lute', NOT the track you thought you were editing.

Summary:
Track names start from track 1 for all views, even when track 1 is out of view.