KVR Audio

jmh · Post by **jmh** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:47 pm

Like I said earlier, ignore that sad excuse of a "developer" and his antics. He gets his knickers twisted every so often that it stopped being funny years ago.

It's best not to feed his fantasies by replying to his nonsense, as you've witnessed already.

Some things never changes in this forum, trolls being one of those things.

antto · Post by **antto** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:54 pm

jmh: i hope he reads my posts then, and try to answer the questions i asked him, at least to himself.. ;]
i can't be passive in such a situation..

VSTJuNkiE · Post by **VSTJuNkiE** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:08 pm

jmh wrote:Like I said earlier, ignore that sad excuse of a "developer" and his antics. He gets his knickers twisted every so often that it stopped being funny years ago.

It's best not to feed his fantasies by replying to his nonsense, as you've witnessed already.

Some things never changes in this forum, trolls being one of those things.

Baiting, trolling and general negativeness are some of Krims' fav activities. Love em' or hate em'. Best to concentrate on your bug fixes and making yur plug-in even better than to waste time going back an forth with him.

@ Krim,

I guess your "nice" streak iz over, eh?

Z3R0T0N1N · Post by **Z3R0T0N1N** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:28 pm

VSTJuNkiE wrote:
@ Krim,

I guess your "nice" streak iz over, eh?

I had wondered... I was like, what's wrong with Krim' lately... he's either off his meds, or on them, not sure which... but he's just not himself!

well, he's clearly back.

grymmjack · Post by **grymmjack** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:04 pm

i dunno, i like the silverbox TB-303 best, it's got a great sequencer, it can play as a synth (which actually sounds good IMO), and it also sends MIDI out. not to discredit your work OP, just that i think silverbox when played as a regular synth sounds pretty damned good, and it lets me program the stuff in my hosts sequencer that way, including whatever i want to tie it to; for example in orion silverbox played in 'normal synth' mode, is sweet because i can modulate the cutoff, res, etc, right in the orion piano roll using the pattern events which means i can see exactly where the note lands what the value will be for the parameter and because orion RULES the grid snapping and value adjustments can be super duper fast and easy to work with - way more than trying to do it by hand take after take etc.

this is just one example but there are others. ABL2 also does this "synth mode" with even greater flair as you can hit harder for automatic accents and if you hold down two notes one then the other in legato fashion, it glides and honors the envelopes in ABL2.

so i think you are wrong OP about "synth mode" being kiddie sounding for a TB303 plugin. that said, i've not tried yours yet because i own both of the former plugins i just mentioned, but also because (no offense) i don't need another 303 especially one that is only pattern mode. any host with rewire could use rebirth the same way so i just dont see the point for a pattern only product?

post some audio demos, there is a site kriminal posted before that does a shootout against all the 303 plugins, you might be interested in it. kriminal i dont have the url handy could you repost it?

great design on the interface even if a little small and rigid to the original boxes hardware UI (one of the best parts of silverbox OVER ABL2 is the fact that he doesn't require that overly limited sequencer with step hardware buttons and all that jazz - you draw in a piano roll to make your pattern, which is a welcome improvement to save time and frustration)

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:29 pm

GOL wrote:He gets his knickers twisted every so often

unlike your mother, who get them twisted so very often

GOL wrote: Some things never changes in this forum

indeed, like a certain sad excuse of a "developer" and his antics

Cordelia · Post by **Cordelia** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:37 pm

antto,
Thanks so much for this. Downloading it now, will play it this afternoon.
I personally enjoy the groovebox step sequencing style. I have plenty of other synths I can trigger from the piano roll. Something about an included sequencer makes me create bass lines I wouldn't otherwise.
Rewiring Rebirth is a PITA, many other emus are expensive. This is a welcome gift.
Thanks, looking forward to using it. I'll report back any issues I find.

novaflash · Post by **novaflash** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:00 pm

3mn test...

Nice GUI, but too small on my big screen.
Crash with chainer(1) not with minihost.

(1) it's the 1st time i've a crash when loading a VST.

antto · Post by **antto** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:17 pm

grymmjack: thank you for this reply..

well, i'm not sure i know the synth you're talking about
maybe it does sound OK when played with the keyboard, but one thing is sure no matter what: you would have to write your patterns differently in a PianoRoll then in a step sequencer
i'll give you an exact example:
assuming there's the normal time mode, where 16 steps are placed in four beats, so there are 4 steps per beat, and the Gate of each step is normaly half the length of the step..

step2 C3 + Gate + slide
step3 D3 (no gate, no slide)
sequencer starts reading step2:
since step3 has no gate, and no slide - the pitch will remain C3
but the gate will continue even on step3, and will fall down half the way between step3 and step4

step2 C3 + Gate + Slide
step3 D3 + Gate (no slide)
sequencer reads step2:
since there is Gate on step3, the sequencer will start sliding the pitch from C3 to D3, and this starts from step2! and ends right when step3 begins

you see?
i think you can't normaly make a slide from step16 to step1 in your pattern if you're doing it in a Piano roll, since if you extend step16 to be 2 steps long, then your DAW will think the pattern is 17 steps long
am i wrong?
also, to make the equivalent of a slide on step1 you would have to move step2 almost over step1..

things get even more complicated when we mention the Accent too
the sequencer has to know about (at least) 2 steps (this, and the next), so it's actions depend on 3*2=6 boolean variables
the main problem with the PianoRoll thing is that there's no way for it to know what'll be the next step, so the only solution is to think of it like a sort-of-delay (like casual filters)
i'm not saying it's bad or useless that others have that external sequencing mode, no! it's good
but i believe people searching for better 303 sounds will prefere using the internal sequencer (doesn't matter which emulation they use)
that's in my oppinion
note: i'm not saying you can't make a 303 sounding pattern with external sequencing, you can! but not always, and you have to do it differently (casual)
i hope you understand what i mean

i threw away the external sequencing mode for my synth, because the circuit would have to be more complicated.. also the CPU usage would go higher
there's no other reason

about the modulation.. i'm not sure i understand what you're talking about..
something like the FLStudio cutoff/reso values for each note in the PianoRoll?
i used my synth in just one track for now, the track itself need a lot of work (it's not even finished)
i did some automation simply by recording it.. pressing the Record button and FLStudio records my knob movements, it's really simple, i guess other DAWs have similar feature to this

so i think you are wrong OP about "synth mode" being kiddie sounding for a TB303 plugin.

actually i meant a slightly different thing
think of what is inside a software emulation of the 303 for a moment
on the one hand there is the synth itself (a trivial circuit of the from OSC>VCA>FILTER)
then there are two EGs that are somwhat different that any other EG circuits
first, there is a mechanism to compare the velocity, to tell the EGs if there is Accent, or not
then the EGs act differently upon that
so now, so far this is a "synth" that has Pitch/Velo/Gate
pluging a keyboard with velocity sensable keys (how do you call them.. erm) then you will hear a silly sound out of it

the software emulators that have External sequencing mode don't do it like that
they have another mechanism right after the keyboard, to fix the sillyness
it is half a sequencer..
it tryies to do what the sequencer does but with an unknown "next step" probably using the current as "next" and the previous as "current"
but that's hard to do, and it means also, that the user behind this keyboard should better know how the "mechanism" expects the input, to be able to play it right to get the right sound

hm.. really difficult to explain these details
just believe me, external and internal sequencing are different
to make the synth act well with the external sequencing is hard (gotta make a good mechanism, and the user has to be careful)

audio demos? well my ugly unfinished track, tho it doesn't concentrate on the 303s, they are very quiet in there..
http://www.box.net/shared/0ktj0tcijs
the first one is distorted, the second one isn't but actually can't be heard clear ;]

i spent a lot of time with the GUI too, thanks ;]

antto · Post by **antto** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:25 pm

novaflash wrote:3mn test...

Nice GUI, but too small on my big screen.
Crash with chainer(1) not with minihost.

(1) it's the 1st time i've a crash when loading a VST.

Hi novaflash ;]
i'm guessing you have SSE and SSE2, and it didn't crash because of that (you were able to load it in the other host?)
then i have no idea why it could crash, probably my modules ;]
have you used other SE VSTs with modules from SE_SDK2 in that host?

GUI too small: hehe, btw, your synths are too big on my monitor ;]
<erm, not only yours>

antto · Post by **antto** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:29 pm

Kriminal wrote:
GOL wrote:He gets his knickers twisted every so often
unlike your mother, who get them twisted so very often

GOL wrote: Some things never changes in this forum
indeed, like a certain sad excuse of a "developer" and his antics

ok, i understand why i was warned.. will (try to) ignore him ;]

sinkmusic · Post by **sinkmusic** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:41 pm

antto wrote:[...] one thing is sure no matter what: you would have to write your patterns differently in a PianoRoll then in a step sequencer
i'll give you an exact example:
assuming there's the normal time mode, where 16 steps are placed in four beats, so there are 4 steps per beat, and the Gate of each step is normaly half the length of the step..

step2 C3 + Gate + slide
step3 D3 (no gate, no slide)
sequencer starts reading step2:
since step3 has no gate, and no slide - the pitch will remain C3
but the gate will continue even on step3, and will fall down half the way between step3 and step4

[...]

Antto, there is one thing i don't get :
why do you want to stick so much with the emulation side of things when it comes to the step seq restrictions, while you have implemented a lot of nice genuine additional features on the synth side of your plugin (which are not on the hw silver box : a second osc, various distortions, multiple filterslopes, etc etc) ?

I know that with a host's piano roll, i can't make a convincing 303 pattern, but also, with a "real" 303, i don't have a 24db filter slope, 2osc, etc.

Well, don't get me wrong : of course, it is all up to you, it is your creation, and the project design decisions are all yours, but i am a bit surprised by the amount of persuasion you put trying to convince people that it will be more "303 accurate" to restrict the triggering/sequencing features, while you already have put your synth on steroids, far from a "simple" 303...

novaflash · Post by **novaflash** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:43 pm

"then i have no idea why it could crash, probably my modules ;]"

i think there is a "demo" from xlutop chainer

"have you used other SE VSTs with modules from SE_SDK2 in that host? "

i don't know if exist a public vst based on the new SE SDK2.

my CPU : athlon xp2200

antto · Post by **antto** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:47 pm

sinkmusic wrote:Antto, there is one thing i don't get :
why do you want to stick so much with the emulation side of things when it comes to the step seq restrictions, while you have implemented a lot of nice genuine additional features on the synth side of your plugin (which are not on the hw silver box : a second osc, various distortions, multiple filterslopes, etc etc) ?

I know that with a host's piano roll, i can't make a convincing 303 pattern, but also, with a "real" 303, i don't have a 24db filter slope, 2osc, etc.

Well, don't get me wrong : of course, it is all up to you, it is your creation, and the project design decisions are all yours, but i am a bit surprised by the amount of persuasion you put trying to convince people that it will be more "303 accurate" to restrict the triggering/sequencing features, while you already have put your synth on steroids, far from a "simple" 303...

good question
to me, the 303's characteristics can be heard even if you turn the Reso OFF completely
this is due to the sequencer
i've added extras on the synth side, but they are OFF by default or are meant for "tuning" (like the PW, some say the 303 square is not perfectly symmetrical, i believe that too)
as i said, i wanted 2 things at the same time, 1) to try making something as close as possible to the "real thing" (don't shoot me here) and 2) to add NITRO ;]
i had to find some balance.. so that's it..

then i should put this line to the <system> requirements: "a user with desire to program the patterns, instead of playing the synth"
a lot of people pay big cash for the real thing (tho it's used 2nd hand or worse) and i've read the manual.. it would be a real pain in the a$$ to program it! all the software emulations with internal sequencers are just toys compared to the original 303 programing
and still people pay for it and adore it

i think programing ABL or ReBirth, or Phoscyon, or my synth, is fair enogh compared to that
and all of these synths provide (including mine, i hope) the ACID sound that you are probably seeking when turning to a 303 emulation in the first place

in general, it will be hard for me to make the "mechanism" i mentioned earlyer so my synth can sound comparably good in external seq mode
it will make the synth run slower, it will take me a lot time to implement it
and then, i probably won't use my synth, because ABL (for example) does a better job with less CPU usage

ReBirth with ReWire? hm.. i haven't tryied it.. it could work

novaflash: i meant, have you loaded other VSTs that were exported from SE 1.0170 and used 3rd party modules created with SDK2 (note: the *new* SDK3 modules do not run on 1.0xxx version at all)
thanks, i'll do some googling

Z3R0T0N1N · Post by **Z3R0T0N1N** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:01 pm

why so many people trying to convince antto to make this synth externally played? there are already SO MANY simple VA synths out there which can be played with your host's piano roll. Not every synth has to have the same features. If you really don't like the step sequencer, then download TAL's Bassline, and just use one oscillator. Problem solved. Single osc VA played with piano roll

I understand that this is a different way of writing a bassline than many are used to, but there is a very good reason that he spent the time and effort writing the sequencer code. I think he has explained it enough times now... no?

With the sheer magnitude of free and inexpensive VA's available that Don't use a step sequencer, surely there must be enough options that antto can make one that does, and not have to change it to be just like all the others.

Honestly, it might seem a bit odd at first, but learning to use this step sequencer is SO worth it, trust me. Put a bit of time in, you won't be dissappointed.

...and if you are, then switch to one of the 1,000,000 other VA bass synths out there instead of trying to convince antto to make his wicked little synth into the 1,000,001st.

note: turn on auto advance, it makes it faster for some things.

PS: Grym, just a question: doesn't silverbox have glide and accent built in to the piano roll? If I remember correctly, the piano roll for silverbox is slightly different from the others, specifically because it's a 303 inspired synth. I could be wrong, the last time I used Orion was version 1.

Link: Venom VB-303 VSTi (Beta release)