Zyklus Improvisor, real-time harmonic sequencer

[maki]

The second youtube video is another gloriuos example of supremecy of realtime composition versus existing piano-roll systems. 1000% faster creative process and a joy of jamming than is impossible for a piano-roll sequencer to achive...as expected.
The video is a brutal demonstration of how easy dramatic movement is introduced with key changes. Just think the time it takes to create this composition using piano-roll system...much longer...and Zyklus does this in real-time.

[koolkeys]

Wait, I thought we were supposed to stop talking about the piano roll and continue talking about Zyklus?

Oh wait, only people who AGREE with you can talk about piano rolls? Even though you are comparing two completely different ways of working, and it's only 1000% your opinion that a piano roll is "better". But that should go without saying.

Brent

[HelgeG]

[...] another gloriuos example of supremecy of realtime composition versus existing piano-roll systems.

Get real maki, you sound like a cheap north korean propaganda movie. I can't wait for Zyklus to be released, it seems like a fun and useful tool, but it is not the true light, beacon of hope, and salvation of composition for all mankind.

[cosmonauttransfer]

This looks awesome. I have a few questions. Can it be run if you don'y have Max. What are the problems associated with installing/uninstalling max runtime. Does Zyklus have inbuilt instruments, or does it drive other vst's, and hardware. Sorry if I'm going over old ground.

[bronswerk]

I'm not sure how this "piano-roll" argument came into the discussion. And it's not important. I think there are 2 ways to look at Improvisor:

1. Use it purely "live" like you would on an arranger. Record some sequences and improvise on top of it.

2. As a studio tool. Put some more effort into making sequences and try out all sort of combinations. The chord recognition is very useful of not being bored listening to the same key scale over and over. And since you can use chords in a very flexible way, meaning you can stretch chords over several octaves, the running sequences are also "stretched out". Another advantage was, and this may sound weird, is how quickly you can abandon an idea (not good enough) and start all over. This is a real time saver.

[maki]

I can not stop comparing supremecy of Zyklus with existing piano-roll systems in terms of effencieny and how natural aproach the real-time composing is compared with tedious multi-track pianoroll systems that dominate market today. I felt rather crippled every time when a needed such an easy and obvious harmonization tool like Zyklus.
My suggestion is sustain-pedal controlled loop-start and loop-end points while recording a melodyline. Predefined lenght is fine as an option but kills freedom. Loop-point naturaly requests quantization toward nearest wholenumber beat and bar. Midi buffer should be capable to reproduce content outside of loop-poins but only as an realtime option. Also, en effective way to prevent "cutted" note-ons before loop startpoint and "forgotten" note off events after loop-end point is a must.

[koolkeys]

That's funny, because I compose in real time using a "piano roll system". And hey, if I want to, I can loop sections, add to them, and even harmonize them, all in real time, and so much more.

I guess you are still assuming that everyone uses a piano roll the same way, and that there is only one way of working in a "piano roll system". Sorry you just don't get it.

As for Zyklus, I do think it looks like a cool tool. I look forward to getting ahold of the Max files if they are released.

Brent

[ehdyn]

I can not stop comparing supremecy of Zyklus with existing piano-roll systems in terms of effencieny and how natural aproach the real-time composing is compared with tedious multi-track pianoroll systems that dominate market today. I felt rather crippled every time ......blablablabalbalbalb

FFS, quit being such an asshat. You havent even used it yet and you're making suggestions now!?!

You shouldve asked the questions that "cosmonauttransfer" asked. Get a clue!

[mbncp]

It is a MIDI tool, you can connect it to your daw/vsti using vitual midi ports.

Don't know about MAX, but given the price, I would expect some runtime libraries.

[bronswerk]

This looks awesome. I have a few questions. Can it be run if you don'y have Max. What are the problems associated with installing/uninstalling max runtime. Does Zyklus have inbuilt instruments, or does it drive other vst's, and hardware. Sorry if I'm going over old ground.

No, you must have Max to run. Max is a beautiful program btw, so it's well worth the money even if you don't like Improvisor in the end.

AFAIK if you install the Max runtime version in essence you install every bit of Max without the possibility to save.

Zyklus Improvisor is purely midi, so no build-in instruments. The way I use Improvisor is in combination with Ableton Live and MidiYoke as a virtual midi pipeline between those 2 programs. And don't confuse Max with "Max for Live".

[KrisM]

. This thing is indeed going to bury piano-roll seqencer market.

I don't think so. I'm not giving up Live or it's piano roll for this. It's cool and all, but they're different markets. This Zyklus Improvisor, isn't it meant for performance? Most piano roll sequencers aren't. Granted, Live was originally meant to be played live, too, and look where it is now.

But I still don't see this burying the almighty piano-roll. A lot of people are against anything perceived as even remotely "automatic". They look at it as cheating. Others don't. I'm sure those people will embrace this. People into generative and/or algorithmic composing, or other means of composing, will be all over this like flies on s***, however.

[bronswerk]

My suggestion is sustain-pedal controlled loop-start and loop-end points while recording a melodyline. Predefined lenght is fine as an option but kills freedom. Loop-point naturaly requests quantization toward nearest wholenumber beat and bar. Midi buffer should be capable to reproduce content outside of loop-poins but only as an realtime option. Also, en effective way to prevent "cutted" note-ons before loop startpoint and "forgotten" note off events after loop-end point is a must.

I thought about this too. The predefined length of a recording is not always what you want. I did make a start with this feature but it's not finished.

The way Improvisor handles recording notes is that notes are only stored in memory if the corresponding note-off is received. And notes are stored as note-on's with duration, not seperate note-on's and note-off's. Hanging notes are very, very rare.

[maki]

That's funny, because I compose in real time using a "piano roll system". And hey, if I want to, I can loop sections, add to them, and even harmonize them, all in real time, and so much more.

By real-time composition I assume :"If you are making a two minute scene, it takes just two minutes to do it." everything else is NOT an real-time composition but "off line" processing.
How can you achieve a real time midi composition if composition has several melodic lines? Until now , it could be achieved only with arrangers and I find them boring, noninspiring, recognizable and limited.
Zyklus is a real refreshment to my ears.

[mbncp]

No, you must have Max to run. Max is a beautiful program btw, so it's well worth the money even if you don't like Improvisor in the end.

AFAIK if you install the Max runtime version in essence you install every bit of Max without the possibility to save.

From the cycling site http://cycling74.com/support/faq_max5/:

You may turn your patch into a platform-specific standalone application. A standalone does not require any additional MaxMSP installation or runtime. You can give this away free.

Couldn't you make a standalone ?
You could actually sell it without restrictions.

[cosmonauttransfer]

Thanks for the info. Max has always been a tool that I'd like but can't afford yet. Are you going to port it to Max for live aswell. This is definatly a tool I would use for live performance as a musician who plays spacerock/ambient/cosmic music