Sample morphing?

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ni-cad
KVRist
63 posts since 31 Jan, 2009

Post Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:15 am

Hi, I've been looking for software and or hardware that is capable of morphing two audio sources/samples together, something that will output a very smooth morph good for creating natural sounds that aren't granulated or distorted.

I thought there would be at least some professional software that could do this but I can't find much, in fact I can only find one app that seems to cover this kind of thing and it doesn't support windows, it's made by a company called Prosonic http://www.prosoniq.com/audio-plugins/prosoniq-morph/ unfortunately as it's Mac only it's no good for me . . . . .

Has anyone heard of any software or hardware that can do this properly?

wakax
KVRAF
1779 posts since 22 Mar, 2002 from Timisoara, Romania

Post Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:19 am

there is a free one:
http://www.martin-brinkmann.de/plugs.html

morf1 : spectral morphing (mixing) effect l/r in, mono out.
uses the great "real-fft"-library by laurent de soras

Hunter
KVRAF
2936 posts since 14 Dec, 2003 from Edinburgh

Post Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:21 am

Camel Audio Alchemy

ni-cad
KVRist
63 posts since 31 Jan, 2009

Post Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:34 pm

I couldn't really get either of these to do much more than create a granulized, distorted mush.

Alchemy was really difficult to work with, maybe I need to take some more time over it but I've reached about my limit of interest in the thing after spending the last few hours getting nowhere.

Does anybody here actually know how to do morphing?

User avatar
ZenPunkHippy
KVRAF
5990 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Melbourne, Australia

Post Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:44 pm

Hey ni-cad,

Check out this thread about morphing in the Camel Audio forum:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3994351

What kind of sounds do you want to morph?

For a true morph to take place, you have to import the sounds using additive or additive / spectral analysis. It is also best to use two sounds that are similar in nature. For example, t's not really possible / practical to morph from a short percussive sound in to a long vocal because the sounds need to have some way of aligning with each other over time.

In hardware the equivalent would be the Kyma system from Symbolic Sound:

http://www.symbolicsound.com/cgi-bin/bi ... ny/WebHome

It's very expensive ... and not that much more capable than Alchemy for morphing sounds. Certainly not 20 x more capable, if we use price as the only marker.

Peace,
Andy.

*edit: proper link to Symbolic Sound website
... space is the place ...

ni-cad
KVRist
63 posts since 31 Jan, 2009

Post Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:34 pm

Oh thanks, I'll give it a read through. I do like Kyma as well.

I'm trying to find out how possible it is to morph spoken words in to music, you know (whole pieces mostly) but particularly the lower ends like the bass, drums etc, I'm still having problems.

I think Kyma might be slightly better than Alchemy for morphing, it has formant analysis features though, but I can't fork out that kind of cash, though I would love to have it. It's a shame they don't sell the software because (my box) is infinitely more powerful than the hardware they're pushing for it, try 12 gig of ram and a 3.04 ghz i7 quad (8 cores) I'm sure it can handle anything Kyma X could throw at it lol.

It's sparked my interest in sound design though, is Kyma pretty much the leader in this field then or what's going on? any ideas?

User avatar
ZenPunkHippy
KVRAF
5990 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Melbourne, Australia

Post Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:21 pm

ni-cad wrote:I'm trying to find out how possible it is to morph spoken words in to music, you know (whole pieces mostly) but particularly the lower ends like the bass, drums etc, I'm still having problems.
Using Alchemy, I've found it's easy to create a smooth time stretched fade between drums and vocals which sounds great, but it's not a true morph. As stated in the previous post, morphing works best with two similar sounds. When morphing dialog, for best results the speakers will be close in terms of pitch and the spacing of words. Another example would be a flute and piano sample - these will morph well together to create a hybrid instrument that sounds like both instruments at the same time. Some really unique timbres can be achieved this way.

The Kyma demos that are most well known are still not easy to reproduce (i.e. take several days of work to contstruct), and I believe a few production tricks are used to disguise or hide any artefacts resulting from the processing ;)
I think Kyma might be slightly better than Alchemy for morphing, it has formant analysis features
One of the main things missing from the morphing engine of Alchemy, that the Kyma system has, is formant morphing. It's a very hard problem to solve, but we're working on it :D
It's sparked my interest in sound design though, is Kyma pretty much the leader in this field then or what's going on? any ideas?
Can't really help, but one of the ideas behind Alchemy is to provide a software alternative to Kyma that normal people can afford. I think the folks behind Kyma have a huge investment in the whole system approach (software and hardware), so it's very unlikely that will change that any time soon.

Anyway, if you need some specific help with the Alchemy demo, just ask or post over in the Camel Audio forum.

Peace,
Andy.
... space is the place ...

nexusdawn
KVRist
329 posts since 26 Aug, 2004

Post Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:34 pm

Kontakt 4 can seamlessly morph samples gradually from through two or more samples with its new AET filter. To my understanding, it does this without any phasing artifacts, which is especially important when morphing various articulations or velocities of the same intrument, sound much more natural and realistic. But any sound sources can be used. To my perception, the morphing is very smooth and high quality. Certainly much better than prosonics Morph, which btw does or at least did exist for PC.

User avatar
ZenPunkHippy
KVRAF
5990 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Melbourne, Australia

Post Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:42 pm

True morphing between sounds requires additive (re) synthesis. I don't have Kontakt 4, but suspect it's doing a very smooth cross-fade, not actual morphing.

Peace,
Andy.
... space is the place ...

lfm
KVRAF
4949 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:15 pm

ni-cad wrote:Hi, I've been looking for software and or hardware that is capable of morphing two audio sources/samples together, something that will output a very smooth morph good for creating natural sounds that aren't granulated or distorted.

I thought there would be at least some professional software that could do this but I can't find much, in fact I can only find one app that seems to cover this kind of thing and it doesn't support windows, it's made by a company called Prosonic http://www.prosoniq.com/audio-plugins/prosoniq-morph/ unfortunately as it's Mac only it's no good for me . . . . .

Has anyone heard of any software or hardware that can do this properly?
As you wrote it 'samples' I guess any good sampler can do that.

You can do:

a) volume envelopes on a number of samples independently
b) filter envelopes on a number of samples independently
c) pitch envelopes on a number of samples independently

But if for continuous audio input(like vocals etc) there would be another product with these features.

If I'm not mistaken www.karmafx.dk has a modular synth that I believe can do this. Or what is already mentioned in this thread.

nexusdawn
KVRist
329 posts since 26 Aug, 2004

Post Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:09 am

ZenPunkHippy wrote:True morphing between sounds requires additive (re) synthesis. I don't have Kontakt 4, but suspect it's doing a very smooth cross-fade, not actual morphing.

Peace,
Andy.
You suspect incorrectly. Kontakt 4's AET filter module uses spectral analysis to enable morphing from one sound to another. You mistaking it for cross fading is a testament to it'smoothness.

Kyma is a great system with it's integrated features, but it's not voodoo beyond approach. There are many plugin's that offer similar on an individual effect basis. Bundles like Pluggo and Hypno offer a near infinite amount of total sounndsculpting features that can easily suffice for a life time of creations.

The poor mans Kyma approach isnt all too bad, wiimote controller and all.

The Chase
KVRAF
10534 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam

Post Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:57 pm

The best tool for morphing one sound into another that I've used are the mac-only standalone soundhack FFT tools from the 90's and not much else I've heard comes close, IMO :(

bulvanskägg
KVRist
61 posts since 4 May, 2009

Post Sun May 09, 2010 9:54 am

http://www.composersdesktop.com/

I use it myself. Endless possibilities, but non-realtime, so it is a bit of a PITA to use.

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