I thought you might..Mac of BIOnighT wrote:No track length limit
This one I like
But you're right the wording of the other points were not so clear. Tried new ones now, see if they are more understandable.
One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
But you're right the wording of the other points were not so clear. Tried new ones now, see if they are more understandable.
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Mac of BIOnighT Mac of BIOnighT https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=70598 - KVRAF
- 2521 posts since 3 Jun, 2005 from Italy
I think it's perfect now 
Just one more little thing:
Covers are allowed I think it should say that covers are OK if the author clearly says it's a cover and names the original composer.
If I may give a little suggestion, I think the column on the left should have rules, about, contact, donors etc on top and the various editions below - in a while there will have been so many aditions that rules etc. will be too far down to be noticed by the occasional visitor...
Just one more little thing:
Covers are allowed I think it should say that covers are OK if the author clearly says it's a cover and names the original composer.
If I may give a little suggestion, I think the column on the left should have rules, about, contact, donors etc on top and the various editions below - in a while there will have been so many aditions that rules etc. will be too far down to be noticed by the occasional visitor...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
Good idea about the cover, included.
About the rule page in the site menu, it will anyway be named and linked to from every OSC page and forum thread so not that important to have on top, and not sure about the others you mention, will think about it.
But one last thing that came up in the Music Cafe's monthly gossip thread: Should we have secret or hidden voting until deadline? Will certainly make it more fair in that people are not influenced by general consensus (which is a real factor)
We could just enter the votes in the form on the site as we do now but without repeating them in the forum thread, just confirm that you have voted. Then all will be revealed after the deadline.
About the rule page in the site menu, it will anyway be named and linked to from every OSC page and forum thread so not that important to have on top, and not sure about the others you mention, will think about it.
But one last thing that came up in the Music Cafe's monthly gossip thread: Should we have secret or hidden voting until deadline? Will certainly make it more fair in that people are not influenced by general consensus (which is a real factor)
We could just enter the votes in the form on the site as we do now but without repeating them in the forum thread, just confirm that you have voted. Then all will be revealed after the deadline.
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Mac of BIOnighT Mac of BIOnighT https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=70598
- KVRAF
- 2521 posts since 3 Jun, 2005 from Italy
Uhmmm... that would also prevent conscious and unconscious favors being returned and such, and there wouldn't be the annoyance of having to repeat the votes twice (where, by the way, I always get confused). On the other hand, there would be no reviews, unless one decides to write them for all tracks. It might be an interesting experiment; maybe it could be implemented a couple of times and see how it works...
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- KVRist
- 63 posts since 10 Jan, 2010
For me we should give
5 4 3 2 1 points (not too difference to prevent casuality in the votes)
mp3 tagging
No covers admitted in general
Covers admitted in one contest where all do the same cover
sample admitted only to freeze the sound for problematic synth
5 4 3 2 1 points (not too difference to prevent casuality in the votes)
mp3 tagging
No covers admitted in general
Covers admitted in one contest where all do the same cover
sample admitted only to freeze the sound for problematic synth
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
Ok, how do others feel about covers?
And what do you all think about having the votes hidden until after deadline?
And what do you all think about having the votes hidden until after deadline?
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- KVRist
- 185 posts since 12 Nov, 2009
I like making and really enjoy listening to covers. Ability to enter to cometition cover allows me to enter the OSC and experiment with the given synth when I lack inspiration to write my own piece at that time. Isn't it the point to learn/improve programming of the synths during the OSC? When I'm voting though I give usually '-1 pt' for entry being not original composition thus requiring a bit less work.V'ger wrote:Ok, how do others feel about covers?
V'ger wrote: And what do you all think about having the votes hidden until after deadline?
That is what worries me the most. Reviews, explanation of 'why do I give points to specific track', thanking for votes, etc. All of these is often fun to read, this encourages others to take part in the OSC and voting, without this voting thread will be dead.Mac of BIOnighT wrote:On the other hand, there would be no reviews, unless one decides to write them for all tracks.
That I guess will make me silently cheatNo samples allowed. You are however allowed to bounce tracks of the synth to save CPU etc
I don't really see the problem in using NON PROCESSED samples for drums, as these sounds are static, repetitive, often non overlapping, and putting so many instances is IMHO only waste of memory/CPU resources (some older computers can't handle it).If fixed votes are already decided I'd like to see this scale expanded to 1-7 or 1-10 for a bigger number of entries. Choosing only TOP5 from 20 entries would be IMHO a bit discriminatory as the competition level is often high.vanmorrison wrote:For me we should give
5 4 3 2 1 points (not too difference to prevent casuality in the votes)
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- KVRist
- 38 posts since 3 Oct, 2010 from Albuquerque, NM USA
Couple quick thoughts:
* I don't see a problem with covers since this is a competition about sound generation. For the Chimera contest, I was immediately inspired to produce a cover and actually spent *more* time working out that sounds than I did when I've made originals.
* I think an OSC where we all work on covering the same song would be an interesting experiment.
* Fixed scale voting is fine with me, but I would like to see a more organic distribution. Linear might work (1-5), but a point allocation with a minimum number of choices would be ideal in my opinion. Something like 30 points, at least 7 choices, no single score above 8. Something like that, though, is more difficult to manage. 1-7 or 1-5 would be easy and still fair.
* As for the hidden votes, I think it would make voting more fair but would take a lot of the fun out of the process. Writing and reading reviews is a big part of this comp's value. Plus I enjoy checking the voting thread every day to see if I'm mentioned. =)
* I think that a shorter timeline for voting would be good. 1-2 weeks is my suggestion.
* Like others, I don't see a problem with sampling the synth provided no changes are made to the sound or its character/timing. A simple note about it in the submission post should clear everything up if you've done it.
* I believe that you should not be allowed to vote for yourself (I don't believe anyone has yet) and that an entrant should be disqualified if they do not vote. This would prevent someone from seeing that they are in the lead and choosing not to vote for others so they can remain in that position.
* In general I agree with the rules as they are written as of this posting. A big thanks to tattiemannie, V'ger and everyone who works to make this contest possible.
* I don't see a problem with covers since this is a competition about sound generation. For the Chimera contest, I was immediately inspired to produce a cover and actually spent *more* time working out that sounds than I did when I've made originals.
* I think an OSC where we all work on covering the same song would be an interesting experiment.
* Fixed scale voting is fine with me, but I would like to see a more organic distribution. Linear might work (1-5), but a point allocation with a minimum number of choices would be ideal in my opinion. Something like 30 points, at least 7 choices, no single score above 8. Something like that, though, is more difficult to manage. 1-7 or 1-5 would be easy and still fair.
* As for the hidden votes, I think it would make voting more fair but would take a lot of the fun out of the process. Writing and reading reviews is a big part of this comp's value. Plus I enjoy checking the voting thread every day to see if I'm mentioned. =)
* I think that a shorter timeline for voting would be good. 1-2 weeks is my suggestion.
* Like others, I don't see a problem with sampling the synth provided no changes are made to the sound or its character/timing. A simple note about it in the submission post should clear everything up if you've done it.
* I believe that you should not be allowed to vote for yourself (I don't believe anyone has yet) and that an entrant should be disqualified if they do not vote. This would prevent someone from seeing that they are in the lead and choosing not to vote for others so they can remain in that position.
* In general I agree with the rules as they are written as of this posting. A big thanks to tattiemannie, V'ger and everyone who works to make this contest possible.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
Yeah you are right, I can see how the voting thread will be a dry affair with no reviews and just a 'voted' message.
About weighted points, it would probably be ideal, but makes it more work and seems to be a split opinion with a slight favor for the simpler solution, so let's try the straight 5-4-3-2-1 for now and check again later.
About covers, there seems to a majority in favor so let's keep that. Certainly an interesting idea with all covering the same tune as you say Archon. Seems a good thing to spice things up with specials once in a while so that can be be an alternative.
About samples, I always meant samples as in external ones and bouncing as from the synth, and not only as tracks. Should specify this in the rules, see if this is about right:
No samples allowed. You are however allowed to bounce sounds or tracks of the synth to save CPU etc, but they must not be processed after that.
About weighted points, it would probably be ideal, but makes it more work and seems to be a split opinion with a slight favor for the simpler solution, so let's try the straight 5-4-3-2-1 for now and check again later.
About covers, there seems to a majority in favor so let's keep that. Certainly an interesting idea with all covering the same tune as you say Archon. Seems a good thing to spice things up with specials once in a while so that can be be an alternative.
About samples, I always meant samples as in external ones and bouncing as from the synth, and not only as tracks. Should specify this in the rules, see if this is about right:
No samples allowed. You are however allowed to bounce sounds or tracks of the synth to save CPU etc, but they must not be processed after that.
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- KVRAF
- 3257 posts since 28 Dec, 2007
Yeah that looks like a good set of rules, apart from one .... covers. I'm not at all happy with this one. I'm not against folks doing covers, but I think we are skipping the wrong side of the line legally.
In fact, the reason I have been reluctant to publicly distribute the link to the StringZ e-album is because there is a cover on it, and to make it a public release, as 'producer' of the e-album, I would be obliged to declare this to MCPS, pay £20 to register the album regardless of the number of copies I hoped to distribute and regardless of the fact it is to be distributed free.
The fact that we are offering tracks for download means we could be viewed as producers or even broadcasters. This is no problem with original compositions as each individual agrees to share their tracks, and actively makes them available. But, I am pretty sure that, at least in the UK, recording a cover is no problem .. but to broadcast it or distribute without the copyright owners permission is against the law, and all individuals actively involved in the process of making the track publicly available are liable. In the case of V'ger, there would be no defence as it is now written in the rules that this is acceptable.
This might actually excuse the artist as the artist could point to that written rule, and V'ger, having written it would be easier to sue.
Chances are no-one will give a toss, and if anything, a cover arranged on a single synth will prob be regarded more as of benefit to the original artist than harmful .... BUT - do we want to take the risk??
Also, returning to the subject of artist name/kvr name, I would advise anyone who uses a famous artists name as their KVR name to assign their tracks to an original artist name.
Two examples spring to mind ... vanmorrison ( who has in the past entered his work under the name 'The Beatsoul' ... and prob should do that for future tracks with KVR name in brackets ), and New Kids on the Block.
The law relating to these? Well, you can call yourself what you like, but when you produce work, products, services, you should make sure that an individual or company has not registered that name as a trade mark ( and most established artists do! ) .... otherwise, you are, in legal terms, posing as that company or individual, and either seeking to earn what is rightfully theirs, seeking to earn publicity or credit based on their reputation, or seeking to misrepresent them in some way.... and will therefore be liable for court action - Oh, and trademarks are global!
Yeah, this is all pretty heavy, and as I said earlier, probably very unlikely to happen .... BUT, do we want to take the risk?
... other issue, a much more trivial point ... I can go with the secret vote idea, although it is quite exciting watching tracks move up and down in the race. if we go with that though, I dont see any reason why we cant still do reviews/comments .... I very often find more to write about some tracks which will not get any points, than tracks which will score highly. I think it is good to give feedback to each other, and the reviews also demonstrate that all the tracks have been 'actively' listened to.
In fact, the reason I have been reluctant to publicly distribute the link to the StringZ e-album is because there is a cover on it, and to make it a public release, as 'producer' of the e-album, I would be obliged to declare this to MCPS, pay £20 to register the album regardless of the number of copies I hoped to distribute and regardless of the fact it is to be distributed free.
The fact that we are offering tracks for download means we could be viewed as producers or even broadcasters. This is no problem with original compositions as each individual agrees to share their tracks, and actively makes them available. But, I am pretty sure that, at least in the UK, recording a cover is no problem .. but to broadcast it or distribute without the copyright owners permission is against the law, and all individuals actively involved in the process of making the track publicly available are liable. In the case of V'ger, there would be no defence as it is now written in the rules that this is acceptable.
This might actually excuse the artist as the artist could point to that written rule, and V'ger, having written it would be easier to sue.
Chances are no-one will give a toss, and if anything, a cover arranged on a single synth will prob be regarded more as of benefit to the original artist than harmful .... BUT - do we want to take the risk??
Also, returning to the subject of artist name/kvr name, I would advise anyone who uses a famous artists name as their KVR name to assign their tracks to an original artist name.
Two examples spring to mind ... vanmorrison ( who has in the past entered his work under the name 'The Beatsoul' ... and prob should do that for future tracks with KVR name in brackets ), and New Kids on the Block.
The law relating to these? Well, you can call yourself what you like, but when you produce work, products, services, you should make sure that an individual or company has not registered that name as a trade mark ( and most established artists do! ) .... otherwise, you are, in legal terms, posing as that company or individual, and either seeking to earn what is rightfully theirs, seeking to earn publicity or credit based on their reputation, or seeking to misrepresent them in some way.... and will therefore be liable for court action - Oh, and trademarks are global!
Yeah, this is all pretty heavy, and as I said earlier, probably very unlikely to happen .... BUT, do we want to take the risk?
... other issue, a much more trivial point
... I can go with the secret vote idea, although it is quite exciting watching tracks move up and down in the race. if we go with that though, I dont see any reason why we cant still do reviews/comments .... I very often find more to write about some tracks which will not get any points, than tracks which will score highly. I think it is good to give feedback to each other, and the reviews also demonstrate that all the tracks have been 'actively' listened to.-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
Hm, it never occured to me at all that doing covers in a small freeware synth competition could have legal ramifications. It's like Youtube or anywhere on the net where millions are doing versions of other's stuff and you know there's no way they are paying royalties for it.
As I said I never really thought about it, so must just have assumed there was a 'fair use' policy of all as long as things were not released for commercial purposes, but I guess there's no need to take any risks like you say, so better drop it.
As I said I never really thought about it, so must just have assumed there was a 'fair use' policy of all as long as things were not released for commercial purposes, but I guess there's no need to take any risks like you say, so better drop it.
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- KVRAF
- 3257 posts since 28 Dec, 2007
Sorry to be a killjoy, but I do think it is risky.
For sure you see stuff on Youtube etc which gets away with it, but at the same time, we all know that there is the occasional crackdown on these same sites .. and it's the guys who cant pay the lawyers who get hammered, or have to quickly pull their material and hide.
For sure you see stuff on Youtube etc which gets away with it, but at the same time, we all know that there is the occasional crackdown on these same sites .. and it's the guys who cant pay the lawyers who get hammered, or have to quickly pull their material and hide.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
But there are still a lot of songs that have no copyright like classical and folk music. As far as I can see, copyright ends when the author has been dead more than 70 years.
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Mac of BIOnighT Mac of BIOnighT https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=70598
- KVRAF
- 2521 posts since 3 Jun, 2005 from Italy
Traditional etc yes, dead for 70 years, not exactly... the rights are not necessarily with the author, they may have been bought by somebody else, or be the family's, etc. Actually, something (anything) is considered to be in the public domain 75 years after the copyrights were registered (by anybody) and only if they haven't been renewed since. (like many other people, I'm a fan of OTR (Old Time Radio, the old radio shows from the 30's/40's/50's); because of our passion we're constantly discovering things about the copyright nightmare. There's enough to keep you awake at night).V'ger wrote:But there are still a lot of songs that have no copyright like classical and folk music. As far as I can see, copyright ends when the author has been dead more than 70 years.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
Anyway, there's a caveat on the site that covers must not be of copyrighted material, and the site is anyway not publishing works per se, it has an unmoderated dropbox player showing people's uploaded ('published') stuff so should be 'covered' now.. (pun fun, geddit? 
)
Btw, just checked Youtube for the phrase "cover song", got 1,9 mill hits.. Which means there are for sure at least another million covers not described by that exact phrase. So all in all I think the world we live in today has more than slightly changed when it comes to this issue..
)Btw, just checked Youtube for the phrase "cover song", got 1,9 mill hits.. Which means there are for sure at least another million covers not described by that exact phrase. So all in all I think the world we live in today has more than slightly changed when it comes to this issue..
