Reason sound doesn't sell is not true

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Frantz
KVRAF
5320 posts since 18 Jul, 2008 from New York

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:41 am

I bought Reason when Thor first came out. It was my first attempt to move from hardware to ITB. I was immediately struck by how bad the Reason reverb was compared to my Lexicon PCM 81. Reason reverb sounded gritty and cheap in comparison. I abandoned Reason after messing around for a few weeks because of the reverb and being underwhelmed by Thor.

I now work almost exclusively ITB. I am using Valhalla Room for reverb. I don't bother patching in the Lexicon hardware. The Valhalla stuff is good enough and more convenient when you're ITB.

I think reverb is the perfect example why the original closed Reason model didn't work. The Valhalla guy is a reverb maniac and has spent years coding nothing but reverb algorithms. No one on the Props team was as experienced or interested in reverb. Their reverb was inferior to both Valhalla and Lexicon.

You would find the same thing if you compared all the virtual analog plugins available (Diva, TAL, Monark, Arturia SEM, etc.) to Thor. The world of standard format plugins has a deeper developer talent pool than the Propellerheads team. They finally recognized this by adding Rack Extensions but I think it's too late. The world has moved on.

Aroused by JarJar
KVRian
1048 posts since 16 Oct, 2008

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:49 am

Frantz wrote:I bought Reason when Thor first came out. It was my first attempt to move from hardware to ITB. I was immediately struck by how bad the Reason reverb was compared to my Lexicon PCM 81. Reason reverb sounded gritty and cheap in comparison. I abandoned Reason after messing around for a few weeks because of the reverb and being underwhelmed by Thor.

I now work almost exclusively ITB. I am using Valhalla Room for reverb. I don't bother patching in the Lexicon hardware. The Valhalla stuff is good enough and more convenient when you're ITB.

I think reverb is the perfect example why the original closed Reason model didn't work. The Valhalla guy is a reverb maniac and has spent years coding nothing but reverb algorithms. No one on the Props team was as experienced or interested in reverb. Their reverb was inferior to both Valhalla and Lexicon.

You would find the same thing if you compared all the virtual analogs plugins available (Diva, TAL, Monark, Arturia SEM, etc.) to Thor. The world of standard format plugins has a deeper developer talent pool than the Propellerheads team. They finally recognized this by adding Rack Extensions but I think it's too late. The world has moved on.
I prefer Valhalla Room to the PCMs. Bounce a wet track and shelf the bass a bit then mix with the dry original.

krucial
KVRist
139 posts since 24 Mar, 2012

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:55 am

Davias wrote:
krucial wrote:
Davias wrote:
krucial wrote:I wish I had the magical ears you guys have. I mean you guys can tell what songs were made in Reason, pick out the sound of Thor or subtractor in a song, wow amazing. This is skill I dream of having. So all this time you guys knew Com Truise, A Guy Called Gerald and countless others were using Reason based on their sound. Again ears and skill I can only dream of having. LOL, Kvr I tell you.
I just go to listen to Com Truise on his soundcloud and songs are lacking low end and the highs sounds plastic to me. But this is a good example then of what can be achieved on reason with good skills and dedication.

Now if you compare his sound to other dubstep productions, his one is softer and transients are also softer than they should (IMHO !!). ;)
Um Com Truise is not making Dubstep. As far as "lacking low end" etc maybe its just his production style. So you would have been able to tell that he was using Reason correct because he lacks low end etc? Check out A Guy Called Gerald too. Tell me how you were able to spot the Reason sound in his productions, be very specific I need tips on how to develop spotting the Reason sound. Gerald is a diehard Reason user both live and in the studio.
Sorry I don't know the name of his music style, for me it sounded like ambient dubstep.

About Gerald, It's hard to tell but I would say the kicks, I sent a few youtube links to a friend who is also used to the reason sound since more than 10 years and he did told me about the kick first. Now it is not easy to spot I agree. In some case that kind of sound would be desirable. But I still wait to hear something which have the sonic definition and impact of lets say Koan Sound made with Reason and then I guess I would have to admit I was just fooling myself ^^

I don't try to convince anybody, if you like Reason use it, but I have my opinion on it and I checked the waveforms differences at home, and after wondering for so many years that settled it for me.
OK cool. It funny you mentioned Koan Sound because I was going to tell you to check them out in my last post in regards to the lack of bass for Com Truise. Yep Koan Sound are Reason users as well. :)

"LL: What does your production process typically look like? What do you use to produce it, and how do you find inspiration?

Will: "Usually it's just done by lots of experimentation really. We use Reason 4, and I've been using it for years and years but I'm still finding plenty of new things every time we use it. It's just a case of finding a bit of inspiration in something, and then building upon that. Usually I find the best way to find inspiration is to listen to a genre completely different to what you're trying to make whether it's a band, or whatever - classical music even, or film music. It helps a lot when you try and bring that into dubstep, or whatever you're trying to do."

Source: http://low-life.ca/2011/11/28/koan-soun ... interview/

u_f_o
KVRist
84 posts since 17 Nov, 2010 from up in the skies

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:02 am

-edit-
Last edited by u_f_o on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aroused by JarJar
KVRian
1048 posts since 16 Oct, 2008

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:08 am

krucial wrote:
Davias wrote:
krucial wrote:
Davias wrote:
krucial wrote:I wish I had the magical ears you guys have. I mean you guys can tell what songs were made in Reason, pick out the sound of Thor or subtractor in a song, wow amazing. This is skill I dream of having. So all this time you guys knew Com Truise, A Guy Called Gerald and countless others were using Reason based on their sound. Again ears and skill I can only dream of having. LOL, Kvr I tell you.
I just go to listen to Com Truise on his soundcloud and songs are lacking low end and the highs sounds plastic to me. But this is a good example then of what can be achieved on reason with good skills and dedication.

Now if you compare his sound to other dubstep productions, his one is softer and transients are also softer than they should (IMHO !!). ;)
Um Com Truise is not making Dubstep. As far as "lacking low end" etc maybe its just his production style. So you would have been able to tell that he was using Reason correct because he lacks low end etc? Check out A Guy Called Gerald too. Tell me how you were able to spot the Reason sound in his productions, be very specific I need tips on how to develop spotting the Reason sound. Gerald is a diehard Reason user both live and in the studio.
Sorry I don't know the name of his music style, for me it sounded like ambient dubstep.

About Gerald, It's hard to tell but I would say the kicks, I sent a few youtube links to a friend who is also used to the reason sound since more than 10 years and he did told me about the kick first. Now it is not easy to spot I agree. In some case that kind of sound would be desirable. But I still wait to hear something which have the sonic definition and impact of lets say Koan Sound made with Reason and then I guess I would have to admit I was just fooling myself ^^

I don't try to convince anybody, if you like Reason use it, but I have my opinion on it and I checked the waveforms differences at home, and after wondering for so many years that settled it for me.
OK cool. It funny you mentioned Koan Sound because I was going to tell you to check them out in my last post in regards to the lack of bass for Com Truise. Yep Koan Sound are Reason users as well. :)

"LL: What does your production process typically look like? What do you use to produce it, and how do you find inspiration?

Will: "Usually it's just done by lots of experimentation really. We use Reason 4, and I've been using it for years and years but I'm still finding plenty of new things every time we use it. It's just a case of finding a bit of inspiration in something, and then building upon that. Usually I find the best way to find inspiration is to listen to a genre completely different to what you're trying to make whether it's a band, or whatever - classical music even, or film music. It helps a lot when you try and bring that into dubstep, or whatever you're trying to do."

Source: http://low-life.ca/2011/11/28/koan-soun ... interview/
If you're going whip the argumentum ad auctoritatem out of your fly, you might want to apply some calipers beforehand.

Davias
KVRian
763 posts since 3 Apr, 2013 from Belgium

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:09 am

krucial wrote:
Davias wrote:
krucial wrote:
Davias wrote:
krucial wrote:I wish I had the magical ears you guys have. I mean you guys can tell what songs were made in Reason, pick out the sound of Thor or subtractor in a song, wow amazing. This is skill I dream of having. So all this time you guys knew Com Truise, A Guy Called Gerald and countless others were using Reason based on their sound. Again ears and skill I can only dream of having. LOL, Kvr I tell you.
I just go to listen to Com Truise on his soundcloud and songs are lacking low end and the highs sounds plastic to me. But this is a good example then of what can be achieved on reason with good skills and dedication.

Now if you compare his sound to other dubstep productions, his one is softer and transients are also softer than they should (IMHO !!). ;)
Um Com Truise is not making Dubstep. As far as "lacking low end" etc maybe its just his production style. So you would have been able to tell that he was using Reason correct because he lacks low end etc? Check out A Guy Called Gerald too. Tell me how you were able to spot the Reason sound in his productions, be very specific I need tips on how to develop spotting the Reason sound. Gerald is a diehard Reason user both live and in the studio.
Sorry I don't know the name of his music style, for me it sounded like ambient dubstep.

About Gerald, It's hard to tell but I would say the kicks, I sent a few youtube links to a friend who is also used to the reason sound since more than 10 years and he did told me about the kick first. Now it is not easy to spot I agree. In some case that kind of sound would be desirable. But I still wait to hear something which have the sonic definition and impact of lets say Koan Sound made with Reason and then I guess I would have to admit I was just fooling myself ^^

I don't try to convince anybody, if you like Reason use it, but I have my opinion on it and I checked the waveforms differences at home, and after wondering for so many years that settled it for me.
OK cool. It funny you mentioned Koan Sound because I was going to tell you to check them out in my last post in regards to the lack of bass for Com Truise. Yep Koan Sound are Reason users as well. :)

"LL: What does your production process typically look like? What do you use to produce it, and how do you find inspiration?

Will: "Usually it's just done by lots of experimentation really. We use Reason 4, and I've been using it for years and years but I'm still finding plenty of new things every time we use it. It's just a case of finding a bit of inspiration in something, and then building upon that. Usually I find the best way to find inspiration is to listen to a genre completely different to what you're trying to make whether it's a band, or whatever - classical music even, or film music. It helps a lot when you try and bring that into dubstep, or whatever you're trying to do."

Source: http://low-life.ca/2011/11/28/koan-soun ... interview/
Haha great, so then I have to shut my mouth and admit something was wrong either with my ears or my pseudo-test :D I'm amazed ^^

User avatar
Frantz
KVRAF
5320 posts since 18 Jul, 2008 from New York

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:10 am

u_f_o wrote: what kinda weird logic is this?!!?

do you also disregard logic/cubase/ableton because you don't like it's stock reverb? there are GREAT reverbs and synths available as RE's. it really isn't a issue.
At the time I tried Reason, there were no REs. I was explaining why I didn't stay with Reason.

Now that I'm settled with a regular DAW and a selection of plugins, there is no incentive for me to go back to Reason plus REs.

krucial
KVRist
139 posts since 24 Mar, 2012

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:15 am

Frantz wrote:I bought Reason when Thor first came out. It was my first attempt to move from hardware to ITB. I was immediately struck by how bad the Reason reverb was compared to my Lexicon PCM 81. Reason reverb sounded gritty and cheap in comparison. I abandoned Reason after messing around for a few weeks because of the reverb and being underwhelmed by Thor.

I now work almost exclusively ITB. I am using Valhalla Room for reverb. I don't bother patching in the Lexicon hardware. The Valhalla stuff is good enough and more convenient when you're ITB.

I think reverb is the perfect example why the original closed Reason model didn't work. The Valhalla guy is a reverb maniac and has spent years coding nothing but reverb algorithms. No one on the Props team was as experienced or interested in reverb. Their reverb was inferior to both Valhalla and Lexicon.

You would find the same thing if you compared all the virtual analog plugins available (Diva, TAL, Monark, Arturia SEM, etc.) to Thor. The world of standard format plugins has a deeper developer talent pool than the Propellerheads team. They finally recognized this by adding Rack Extensions but I think it's too late. The world has moved on.
Really? You do realize that the Propellerhead DSP guru Pelle Jubel and one of the founders is the same guy the programmed the Nord Lead 1 and 2 right. Its one thing not to like the sound of their synths but to say that they are less talented than other Devs is taking it a bit too far IMO.

Buy the way there was a thread over at Gearslutz asking people to identify the analog and digital synths. Most chose Thor as the analog synth http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electron ... ost5989430. I absolutely love the RV7000, the few weeks you spend with Reason may have not been enough. Its a very unforgiving environment you have to work to get the sounds you want.

User avatar
Frantz
KVRAF
5320 posts since 18 Jul, 2008 from New York

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:33 am

krucial wrote:Really? You do realize that the Propellerhead DSP guru Pelle Jubel and one of the founders is the same guy the programmed the Nord Lead 1 and 2 right. Its one thing not to like the sound of their synths but to say that they are less talented than other Devs is taking it a bit too far IMO.
You are misunderstanding the argument. There are way more developers working on standard plugin formats than the Propellerheads team could employ. The worldwide talent pool was larger. They addressed this limitation with REs.

I don't think anyone holds up Nord Lead as the state of the art of virtual analog anymore.
krucial wrote:I absolutely love the RV7000, the few weeks you spend with Reason may have not been enough.
I am guessing you haven't compared it to a lot of other reverbs.

krucial
KVRist
139 posts since 24 Mar, 2012

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am

Frantz wrote:
krucial wrote:Really? You do realize that the Propellerhead DSP guru Pelle Jubel and one of the founders is the same guy the programmed the Nord Lead 1 and 2 right. Its one thing not to like the sound of their synths but to say that they are less talented than other Devs is taking it a bit too far IMO.
You are misunderstanding the argument. There are way more developers working on standard plugin formats than the Propellerheads team could employ. The worldwide talent pool was larger. They addressed this limitation with REs.

I don't think anyone holds up Nord Lead as the state of the art of virtual analog anymore.
krucial wrote:I absolutely love the RV7000, the few weeks you spend with Reason may have not been enough.
I am guessing you haven't compared it to a lot of other reverbs.
I haven't because I am happy and know how to use what I have. I cant tell what reverbs were used in particular songs I am sure most people cant either. I do also like the Softube reverbs and Rob Papen RP Verb(I really like this one). I must say I keep going back the the RP7000 tho.

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:03 pm

spaceman wrote:A lot of talking shit here, if you ask me.

People can pick out Reason or Ableton Live tracks in a test as much as they can hear the difference between 44.1 or 48khz or audio through a normal or a gold plated cable.
That true unless they are using 100% factory devices. Then its quite pick able.

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:05 pm

Frantz wrote:I bought Reason when Thor first came out. It was my first attempt to move from hardware to ITB. I was immediately struck by how bad the Reason reverb was compared to my Lexicon PCM 81. Reason reverb sounded gritty and cheap in comparison. I abandoned Reason after messing around for a few weeks because of the reverb and being underwhelmed by Thor.

I now work almost exclusively ITB. I am using Valhalla Room for reverb. I don't bother patching in the Lexicon hardware. The Valhalla stuff is good enough and more convenient when you're ITB.

I think reverb is the perfect example why the original closed Reason model didn't work. The Valhalla guy is a reverb maniac and has spent years coding nothing but reverb algorithms. No one on the Props team was as experienced or interested in reverb. Their reverb was inferior to both Valhalla and Lexicon.

You would find the same thing if you compared all the virtual analog plugins available (Diva, TAL, Monark, Arturia SEM, etc.) to Thor. The world of standard format plugins has a deeper developer talent pool than the Propellerheads team. They finally recognized this by adding Rack Extensions but I think it's too late. The world has moved on.
I actually really like the factory reverb, particularly the rv7000k.

User avatar
Tronam
KVRAF
1656 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:29 pm

Davias wrote:Haha great, so then I have to shut my mouth and admit something was wrong either with my ears or my pseudo-test :D I'm amazed ^^
I'll never forget my initial reaction when I turned off the chorus effect on my Juno 106 for the first time. It was like all of the life got sucked out of the sound, becoming instantly quiet, flat and reedy. I think Reason is a bit like that. Giving its raw sound life seems more challenging than with other DAWs, but I hesitate to suggest that this added challenge is due to the audio engine. There have been so many null and double blind tests done ad nauseum over the years (especially on places like Gearslutz) which have convinced me that even if there are differences between all these sound engines, they're probably imperceptibly small and mixes done using the exact same effects/instrument plugins will produce nearly identical results. I've been doodling around with Reason since v1.0 and though I've always found it addictively fun to use, it really seems to amplify my lacking sound design and mixing skills more than any other program. I'm not suggesting this is true for you, but I also use Logic in most cases because I seem to be able to reach a more "complete" sound much more quickly. I haven't used Reason beyond v4 though, so I have no experience with Record, all their recent SSL emulated mixer stuff and the rack extensions.

ObsoleteAcc99
Banned
22486 posts since 5 Sep, 2001

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:46 pm

Their ssl eq and dynamics is very good.

Davias
KVRian
763 posts since 3 Apr, 2013 from Belgium

Post Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:08 pm

Tronam wrote:
Davias wrote:Haha great, so then I have to shut my mouth and admit something was wrong either with my ears or my pseudo-test :D I'm amazed ^^
I'll never forget my initial reaction when I turned off the chorus effect on my Juno 106 for the first time. It was like all of the life got sucked out of the sound, becoming instantly quiet, flat and reedy. I think Reason is a bit like that. Giving its raw sound life seems more challenging than with other DAWs, but I hesitate to suggest that this added challenge is due to the audio engine. There have been so many null and double blind tests done ad nauseum over the years (especially on places like Gearslutz) which have convinced me that even if there are differences between all these sound engines, they're probably imperceptibly small and mixes done using the exact same effects/instrument plugins will produce nearly identical results. I've been doodling around with Reason since v1.0 and though I've always found it addictively fun to use, it really seems to amplify my lacking sound design and mixing skills more than any other program. I'm not suggesting this is true for you, but I also use Logic in most cases because I seem to be able to reach a more "complete" sound much more quickly. I haven't used Reason beyond v4 though, so I have no experience with Record, all their recent SSL emulated mixer stuff and the rack extensions.
For me Reason is one of the best program to learn about audio and synthesis. Especially for those who started ages ago and had to build everything from scratch with only one synth and a limited set of FX. With the modular environment you can create almost anything that is missing. Now with the REs I guess it is even more fun ! (unless the CPU melts of course). I'm still convinced there is something going on with the sound even if not because of the audio engine. Anyway it doesn't matter what I think ^^

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