Best Piano - PIANOTEQ

[toine6]

It makes sense the Pianoteq responds better than a sampled piano. I will agree with that, and that only a skilled pianist would know the difference, but most people can have an opinion on the sound differences. I've been comparing the modeled piano's with real thing since the first modeled VST, and while they are in the same ball park, samples just SOUND like the real piano, maybe they don't respond well, but the basic tone easily convinces that it's a real piano SOUND, before we factor in what it should sound like when playing (dynamics, string hit variations, etc.). So I understand why players love the modeled VST's, but it still looks like a plastic imitation porcelain flower pot, let's be honest, most people don't really care about the difference between the plastic Walmart flower pot and the Italian marble one, they both look pretty nice from a distance.

[Uncle E]

Why do you need to be a skilled piano player to hear the difference in sound?

It's basically an issue of dynamics. If it were practical (possible?) for a sample library to have every note sampled at every velocity level, you might stop seeing this point coming up.

[Uncle E]

It makes sense the Pianoteq responds better than a sampled piano. I will agree with that, and that only a skilled pianist would know the difference, but most people can have an opinion on the sound differences. I've been comparing the modeled piano's with real thing since the first modeled VST, and while they are in the same ball park, samples just SOUND like the real piano, maybe they don't respond well, but the basic tone easily convinces that it's a real piano SOUND, before we factor in what it should sound like when playing (dynamics, string hit variations, etc.). So I understand why players love the modeled VST's, but it still looks like a plastic imitation porcelain flower pot, let's be honest, most people don't really care about the difference, it still looks pretty nice.

Maybe record with Pianoteq and mixdown with a sample library? We do that with guitars all the time, track through an amp and then reamp the DI'd signal through an amp emulator. And just like with guitars, you can layer the two to great effect.

[EvilDragon]

Why do you need to be a skilled piano player to hear the difference in sound?

It's basically an issue of dynamics. If it were practical (possible?) for a sample library to have every note sampled at every velocity level, you might stop seeing this point coming up.

It's not just velocity (and Vienna did a library like that). There are other things that come into play - like repetitions on the same key, you hit the already vibrating strings at a different phase each and every time the hammer strikes... this just cannot be replicated correctly with samples.

Maybe from a pure technical view, Pianoteq has a great "feel", but if it sounds like One Ping Only, then it doesn't matter in the total picture.

Way too harsh and untrue of a comparison that wasn't really called for, there.

[Uncle E]

It's not just velocity (and Vienna did a library like that).

Which Vienna is that?

There are other things that come into play - like repetitions on the same key, you hit the already vibrating strings at a different phase each and every time the hammer strikes... this just cannot be replicated correctly with samples.

It definitely makes sense to me that there would be a difference. But could this really not be closely approximated using sample switching?

[EvilDragon]

Which Vienna is that?

Imperial Grand, I think.

It definitely makes sense to me that there would be a difference. But could this really not be closely approximated using sample switching?

No, not really, because with samples you can't quite hit the exact phase the string is in and create relevant phase cancellation that can occasionally happen. It's not a simple round robin afair, it's actually really tough to do this with samples - I wouldn't write it off as impossible, but there is a reason why no sample library ever produced did this phenomenon. Samples would need to be perfectly phase-aligned, and IMHO this always kills SOMETHING in the recording as a byproduct...

It's much easier to achieve in a proper physical model.

[Uncle E]

Imperial Grand, I think.

Yes, you're right. Listening to sound examples of it, Pianoteq Model B, D4, and Bluethner, and Art Vista Malmsjo Grand, I'd say the Imperial Grand sounds the most like great classical recordings to me but they are all very realistic sounding and pleasant to listen to. I found the Bluethner to be the most believable of the Pianoteq demos and it reminded me of a nice Schimmel I once played.

Based on what I've listened to today, I'd buy Imperial Grand for my studio drive and Pianoteq + Bluethner for my laptop.

No, not really, because with samples you can't quite hit the exact phase the string is in and create relevant phase cancellation that can occasionally happen. It's not a simple round robin afair, it's actually really tough to do this with samples - I wouldn't write it off as impossible, but there is a reason why no sample library ever produced did this phenomenon. Samples would need to be perfectly phase-aligned, and IMHO this always kills SOMETHING in the recording as a byproduct...

It's much easier to achieve in a proper physical model.

I believe what you're saying but the attacks are actually what make the Model B and D4 sound a little less believable and ever so slightly synthesized to me.

[toine6]

It makes sense the Pianoteq responds better than a sampled piano. I will agree with that, and that only a skilled pianist would know the difference, but most people can have an opinion on the sound differences. I've been comparing the modeled piano's with real thing since the first modeled VST, and while they are in the same ball park, samples just SOUND like the real piano, maybe they don't respond well, but the basic tone easily convinces that it's a real piano SOUND, before we factor in what it should sound like when playing (dynamics, string hit variations, etc.). So I understand why players love the modeled VST's, but it still looks like a plastic imitation porcelain flower pot, let's be honest, most people don't really care about the difference, it still looks pretty nice.

Maybe record with Pianoteq and mixdown with a sample library? We do that with guitars all the time, track through an amp and then reamp the DI'd signal through an amp emulator. And just like with guitars, you can layer the two to great effect.

That would mostly work for my ears, but not for the pianist's. I do like your idea with layering though, that's what they did on John Lennon's song Imagine. Modelling is close, and will only get better, and probably fine in a mix. Still not entirely pleasing when played bare, to my ears. I don't even know if it's accuracy I'm hearing, or if it's just not as pleasing. There are real piano's I think sound terrible, so it could sound exactly like that and I wouldn't like it. It's maybe too smooth sounding, something is just off. But I wouldn't care if it sounded fake, but better than a piano, it's just that it doesn't IMO.

You mention sample switching in your other post, it could eventually get there, but realistically there are just too many variables. Different resonances and harmonies with chords, combined with different multiple pressing's of the same keys, etc. Again, that probably wouldn't bother me that much, but could bother big time piano lovers.

[Doc Brown]

Why do you need to be a skilled piano player to hear the difference in sound?

It's basically an issue of dynamics. If it were practical (possible?) for a sample library to have every note sampled at every velocity level, you might stop seeing this point coming up.

It's not just velocity (and Vienna did a library like that). There are other things that come into play - like repetitions on the same key, you hit the already vibrating strings at a different phase each and every time the hammer strikes... this just cannot be replicated correctly with samples.

Maybe from a pure technical view, Pianoteq has a great "feel", but if it sounds like One Ping Only, then it doesn't matter in the total picture.

Way too harsh and untrue of a comparison that wasn't really called for, there.

Excuse my ignorance ED but theoretically couldn't a phase shift be scripted on the sample via Kontakt on note retrigger?

[EvilDragon]

Theoretically, yes, but samples would need to be phase-locked. IMHO it wouldn't work or sound as well as it does on a good physmod.

[4damind]

Sampling has of course it's limitations. If there are not enough round-robin samples per note it doesn't sound very natural and sometimes thin. The downside is that it makes this libraries often very big and it needs some knowledge with scripting. Physical modelling can do a lot more, because it allows access to single modelling parameters and allow to modify them in realtime. Not to mention that such a model is not static and can be easily modified to create completely different sounds.
The downside with physical modelling is, that you need a very accurate model and this starts with the theoretical knowledge which (physical) parameters are involved to create a sound.
IMO physical modelling will be the future and it allows a lot more than "only" emulating real instruments. But as we have seen also with this example, the results they achieve today are not pleasing everyone.

IMO it has not so much to do how you play the instrument if it sounds artificial or compressed. I don't speak about articulations and how the instrument responds to the keys.

[Ingonator]

TruePianos seems to use a combination of modeling and Samples and sounds great IMO, especially since the Atlantis module was added. Latest versions also seem to work on native 64-bit and on OSX.

It seems to be on sale but this seems to end today. The price is 80$ or 72.85 € (cl. VAT).

The Windows Installers including the seperate installers for the 5 piano models together seem to have a size of around 332 MB.


For those who already got the new V-Collection 5 the new Piano V seems to be another great option for a modeled Piano (beside their E-POiano and Organ plugins). Does also not sound really bad IMO and allows some tweaking of the 9 included models including the Mic setups.

[4damind]

TruePianos seems to use a combination of modeling and Samples and sounds great IMO, especially since the Atlantis module was added. Latest versions also seem to work on native 64-bit and on OSX.

Yes, and it's Afaik the only library using such a combination of modelling and sampling. Unfortunately it seems that 4Front stopped the development since 2012. The announced version 2 was never released and I cannot remember about updates or other news since 3 or 4 years.

[Ingonator]

TruePianos seems to use a combination of modeling and Samples and sounds great IMO, especially since the Atlantis module was added. Latest versions also seem to work on native 64-bit and on OSX.

Yes, and it's Afaik the only library using such a combination of modelling and sampling. Unfortunately it seems that 4Front stopped the development since 2012. The announced version 2 was never released and I cannot remember about updates or other news since 3 or 4 years.

The last version 1.9.5 still works nicely in Windows 10 64-bit and new host versions (e.g. Live and Cubase).

Not sure if there are problems with teh latset OSX versions.

Just guessing but maybe the current sale (ends today) is due to v2.0 being released soon. AFAIK the Atlantis module was supposed to be a "preview" to v2.0.

[kvaca]

TruePianos seems to use a combination of modeling and Samples and sounds great IMO, especially since the Atlantis module was added. Latest versions also seem to work on native 64-bit and on OSX.

Yes, and it's Afaik the only library using such a combination of modelling and sampling.

really??
and what about Pianissimo?
and all that Sound Magic pianos?
and maybe some other lesser known instruments? /like AIR music Mini Grand etc../