So, I installed Mac OS Sierra ...

[woodsdenis]

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=384150

This link might help too going forward.

[masterhiggins]

Waldorf make me reluctant to jump to Sierra. They haven't had much success in the past
Since you asked

That's because they're incompetent.

[Jace-BeOS]

MacOS is supposed to be a easy to use, elegant, minimalistic OS, which doesn't offer gazillions of functions on every app, but rather gives you a few, classic functions instead.

Unfortunately you are probably right. Their philosophy is more to manage everything for us instead of giving us more flexibility to manage things as we want.

That's at least the impression i always get when using a Mac, yes. But then, that more and more holds true for Windows too unfortunately. Can't blame them though, the common PC user is indeed a dummy.

The common user shouldn't need to be a geek in order to get work done with the general purpose tool that a computer is presented to be.

Indeed. But i would figure that simple file operations don't fall under "geekery" really. Or, knowing where stuff is on your harddrive. Fact is, some people using a Mac that i talked to, think their pictures are in iPhoto. No sh**. That of course leads to problems when those people like to share photos with others, or want to move their photos to another computer. Apple's solution: "The cloud is your friend.". Unless there's a non-Apple device in the chain, then it gets really complicated.

Anyway, offtopic.

You can easily share photos from the iPhoto/Photos applications without diving through the file system. Moving photos can also be accomplished via an export within the app. Moving the library from one Mac to another or to another drive is accomplished easily as well. A quick google search answers these questions for someone who hasn't done it before.

[Guillermo Navarrete]

Hello all,

I will like to share some information about macOS Sierra with you. We are about to test our current line-up of products on macOS Sierra. Therefore we strongly recommend you to wait until the entire compatibility chart for all Steinberg products has been published, especially if you rely on a trouble-free operation of our products.

Best regards,
GN

[billcarroll]

Hello all,

I will like to share some information about macOS Sierra with you. We are about to test our current line-up of products on macOS Sierra. Therefore we strongly recommend you to wait until the entire compatibility chart for all Steinberg products has been published, especially if you rely on a trouble-free operation of our products.

Best regards,
GN

Thanks, Guillermo. Sound advice. I was aware I should wait, but forged ahead anyway. I was expecting to encounter crashes and issues.

I chose to make a backup of my system and move forward with my own testing since I felt I had nothing to lose. Cubase performance on El Capitan was not good at all for me.

I really want to use Cubase 8.5, but I've been using Studio One v3 instead because it outperforms Cubase on my recent maxed out MacBook Pro. Cubase was constant overloading with CPU spikes, and was pretty unusable.

When Mac OS Sierra is released, a bunch of people will upgrade. I decided to post issues and fixes here to help a little if I can.

[chk071]

MacOS is supposed to be a easy to use, elegant, minimalistic OS, which doesn't offer gazillions of functions on every app, but rather gives you a few, classic functions instead.

Unfortunately you are probably right. Their philosophy is more to manage everything for us instead of giving us more flexibility to manage things as we want.

That's at least the impression i always get when using a Mac, yes. But then, that more and more holds true for Windows too unfortunately. Can't blame them though, the common PC user is indeed a dummy.

The common user shouldn't need to be a geek in order to get work done with the general purpose tool that a computer is presented to be.

Indeed. But i would figure that simple file operations don't fall under "geekery" really. Or, knowing where stuff is on your harddrive. Fact is, some people using a Mac that i talked to, think their pictures are in iPhoto. No sh**. That of course leads to problems when those people like to share photos with others, or want to move their photos to another computer. Apple's solution: "The cloud is your friend.". Unless there's a non-Apple device in the chain, then it gets really complicated.

Anyway, offtopic.

You can easily share photos from the iPhoto/Photos applications without diving through the file system. Moving photos can also be accomplished via an export within the app. Moving the library from one Mac to another or to another drive is accomplished easily as well. A quick google search answers these questions for someone who hasn't done it before.

It must be because i'm still from the times where you actually organized your files in a file explorer on your harddrive, not in dozens of different apps. iPhoto/Photos organizes your library for you, with 3 or 4 copies of the same file, for thumbnails, and for non-destructive editing. Like with many of the Mac apps, i'd love to organize my stuff myself, and not let an app do the work, especially when i have no idea what work it really does.

[billcarroll]

It must be because i'm still from the times where you actually organized your files in a file explorer on your harddrive, not in dozens of different apps. iPhoto/Photos organizes your library for you, with 3 or 4 copies of the same file, for thumbnails, and for non-destructive editing. Like with many of the Mac apps, i'd love to organize my stuff myself, and not let an app do the work, especially when i have no idea what work it really does.

For most people, their photos are in Photos. That's all they need to know. The user who thinks their photos are in Photos (formerly iPhoto) is no more wrong than the user who thinks their files are in Finder. Both are GUI-based programs designed to be user friendly. For the rest of us, there is Terminal. Ultimately everything on your machine is a text file that can be edited. The underpinning of MacOS is a variant of Unix.

[chk071]

I can only say that it gets very complicated when you're trying to help a relative, and tell him to browser to his photo library in the Finder, and he tells you "I can't. All my photos are in iPhoto.". That's a wrong implication a program gives, when you believe that your photos are all in the program then. And it ultimately prevents you from understanding how your computer, and your harddrive works.

[DrGonzo]

I think when this Mac eventually dies I am going back to Windows...my nerves can't take any more of their updates and waiting to see what gets broken this time.

I can really relate to this. My only strategy to successfully deal with the constant new OS:es from Apple is to always stay - at least - one version behind. But if you are on Logic you are pretty screwed if you want the new versions. But I never - repeat 1000 times - never install a new Apple OS on day one. That is just a recipe for misery.

Due to some incompatibilities with some older software I need to use, I am sometimes going back to Snow Leopard. That was one fine operating system.

/C

[ObsoleteAcc99]

Hello all,

I will like to share some information about macOS Sierra with you. We are about to test our current line-up of products on macOS Sierra. Therefore we strongly recommend you to wait until the entire compatibility chart for all Steinberg products has been published, especially if you rely on a trouble-free operation of our products.

Best regards,
GN

hi, cubase is very sluggish on El Capitan Guillermo. So sluggish with even say 16 tracks, to select and unselect clips in the arrange, it can get up to a second delay just for each select! Hopefully Steinberg take sierra more seriously (because Steinberg are always having cutting edge OS as a requirement, they should therefore support it properly).

[Jace-BeOS]

I can only say that it gets very complicated when you're trying to help a relative, and tell him to browser to his photo library in the Finder, and he tells you "I can't. All my photos are in iPhoto.". That's a wrong implication a program gives, when you believe that your photos are all in the program then. And it ultimately prevents you from understanding how your computer, and your harddrive works.

There's nothing at all wrong with that, if we are to promote the idea of computers being appliances for everyone to use. As you can see for yourself, a non-techie person perceives the app as "where the photos "live", and Apple makes a system that follows the average user's perception (rather than the techie). This is how people think, on average, and the average human should be supported by technology, not just specialists who spent decades learning all the techie underpinnings. There's no reason to know how a hard drive works in order to use a computer, unless you're a technical person who NEEDS that information. The majority of people aren't and don't need to know. There are specialists to do that work for them, when it is needed. Just like when I take my car to a service center for regular maintenance and repairs. I know more about it than the average person, but it serves me very little utility to know how an internal combustion engine works, for example.

With all due respect, if you're trying to help a relative and they're telling you "I can't", it's up to you to educate them (as kindly as possible) on how to do what they think they cannot do. I've done tech support all my adult life and the best work is done when I know the other party's software. I also wonder why you're asking them to browse their file system to access photos. It's far easier to work within the existing framework of the tools the user is familiar with instead of trying to train users in the techie ways of doing things. I highly recommend learning the native usage of a tool before attempting to guide others in its usage. Just because you're not familiar with how Apple's software does a thing does not mean that their way is the "wrong" way to do it. You yourself are admitting that you don't know how/why iPhoto/Photos does what it does; that puts the burden on you to learn it so that your assistance to others is as useful as possible.

It's fine if you don't want systems managing content for you on your own computers. You are not the majority, though. So I recommend learning how to work their way, too, if you wish to be of assistance to them

[chk071]

See i'm totally supportive of the idea that software has to be made simple, and easy to use. There's a bit of a difference between simplicity, and ease and use, and dumbing down a system though. People used to be able to use Windows 3.1, and handle files on their HARDDRIVE, so i don't know why it has to be so dumbed down these days that the people think their pictures are in a PROGRAM. Of course, i know that such programs exist because it's easier to manage your photos on a nice graphical user interface, rather than move files on a harddrive, but at the point where people lose their ability to do something else with the pictures, than what the program dictates what is possible to do with the photos, then that's a problem. For example, as mentioned, there is no easy way to back up single photos, instead you have to backup that whole bloated library, which contains the pictures not once, but 4 or 5 times (not sure about that now, it has been a while since i did that), or you have some issues when you want to transfer single pictures to another, non-Mac computer.

Frankly, i think that this kind of dumbing down software, and patronizing users is the wrong way. At the very least, you have to make it easy for people to do things you used to be able to do easily when handling files on your harddrive in your program. But then, Apple is also notorious for closing their system in a way where they assume everyone else in the world is using Apple products too. So the issue is not only the dumbing down, but also that.

[chokehold]

it ultimately prevents you from understanding how your computer, and your harddrive works.

So how does data storage on your SSD work? What part of the computer tells which part of the computer what kind of information to store, and what trigger signal is necessary for that? How is it delivered? What bus, what voltage? Do you use a car/motorbike/bicycle? If so, could you take apart and put back together again its gearbox? I mean, you use one, so you have to know exactly how it works, right?

That's a wrong implication a program gives, when you believe that your photos are all in the program then.

So you're saying databases are wrong, MySQL for example? Collections of files and snippets arranged into one huge binary lump that cannot be sensibly browsed in a file explorer, only by using certain on-top software?

All Photos/iPhoto does is create a database of photos. Not even an obfuscated or encrypted one that would keep you from browsing to the files directly. Just a folder that collects files and groups them by date, free to browse and use as you please.

there is no easy way to back up single photos

Orly? Then what's in this directory?
~/Photos Library.photoslibrary/Masters/
Right-click the Photos library "clump", select "Show package contents", off we go.
Works for any .app as well, by the way. Or AU/VST/VST3/AAX/etc. plugin. Or basically anything that lives off a folder-based internal structure.
You can "Show package contents" the hell out of these things from any file selection dialog in a backup application, by the way.

Alternatively, just drag the damn picture out from the Photos app into any other Finder window or application. Job done.

You are obviously not too informed about basic and trivial functionality of OSX.
Makes me wonder if you should be judging it as confidently as you do.

So you don't know much about Macs and you just don't like Apple.
We've established that.
Now can we get back on topic please.

(Sorry if this sound harsh. I'm just so fed up by people dissing things they don't understand.)

[chk071]

it ultimately prevents you from understanding how your computer, and your harddrive works.

So how does data storage on your SSD work? What part of the computer tells which part of the computer what kind of information to store, and what trigger signal is necessary for that? How is it delivered? What bus, what voltage? Do you use a car/motorbike/bicycle? If so, could you take apart and put back together again its gearbox? I mean, you use one, so you have to know exactly how it works, right?

I don't understand that argument at all. You don't have to get into advanced physics to have a general understanding of processes going on in the world. Knowing that your pictures are files, and that your files are stored on your harddrive is the least, least, LEAST thing you should know when using a computer. Otherwise you can't understand anything regarding of how your computer manages photos, or other kind of data for that matter.

there is no easy way to back up single photos

Orly? Then what's in this directory?
~/Photos Library.photoslibrary/Masters/
Right-click the Photos library "clump", select "Show package contents", off we go.

What exactly does that command do? And why does that have to be so complicated, if the OS is claiming to do everything so "easy"? On a Windows or Linux system, i copy the pictures in the folders, done.

And yes, you do come over as harsh. Maybe we can discuss this in a civilized manner, instead of pissing ourselves off, just because we can't take someone else criticizing certain things certain onboard apps of our operating system do.

[Jace-BeOS]

See i'm totally supportive of the idea that software has to be made simple, and easy to use. There's a bit of a difference between simplicity, and ease and use, and dumbing down a system though.

Sorry, but the fact that you use the phrase "dumbing down" really tells me that you're not as supportive of ease-of-use as you might think you are. That phrase is a pejorative meme used by techies, not usability experts. It's used to disparage non-techies and the things made for them to use. It reveals your bias as a tech person. Maybe you don't grasp your bias. This is understandable, but it won't help you help users who aren't like you.

I've met people who have PhDs in engineering, medicine, chemistry, etc. That they don't know the inner workings of an operating system does not make them dumb, and making a system easier to use for said people makes it SMARTER, not dumb. People develop specializations because no one can be an expert in everything. This is how civilization works.

I feel you are making a value judgment against a system you do not have comfort with. It's like you are demanding it function in a way that you are personally comfortable with, rather than learning why it is designed differently and working forward from there. This can result in trying to put a square peg in a round socket.

Furthermore: You've declared an expectation that average computer users should rise up to your level of specialist knowledge, rather than adjusting your own knowledge to assist them from within their position. I highly recommend reassessing your perspective, if you are a support person or if you wish to be helpful to family members who ask for your assistance. Helping others requires empathizing with their needs, not demanding they also become experts in your field.

I tried my best with this off-topic discussion, but I'm going to leave it alone from here on. In this thread, at least