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HansP
KVRist
 
121 posts since 9 Sep, 2017
back to original question

do we need double summing at all?

I have put 2 different compressors and a direct wire in a rack. this was as parallel as I wanted. It was the vocal sum bus.
but so far the compressors in use here, have zero latency.
caution - they are not routed serially but each in parallel to the wire.

probably a manual construction with a tech utility plugin that lets you enter positive and negative delay values should be possible also, if you keep it all within one rack, that sits in the master section.

there are also suggestions for a parallel structure, that the same plugin sits in the rack twice, but in one instance, all settings are neutral, so it does nothing but make latency, same amount as the active plugin.
PierreG
KVRist
 
163 posts since 23 Sep, 2005
Trancit wrote:
dRowAudio wrote:
PierreG wrote:My understanding is that Aux Sends / Returns are NOT latency compensated in Waveform, thus I don't use them for busing.

This is incorrect. They are correctly compensated for as long as you are only using a single bus type element on a track (i.e. aux send/receive, Rack with multiple instances or track to track input device).

For all but the most complex cases latency should be correctly compensated for.


I don´t understand what you are saying, but here at least the aux return track isn´t compensated (having a latency plugin on this track)... or I am doing something wrong...


Dave, please further elaborate. Be great to have a map / flow chart of how to stay latency compensated throughout the various Waveform configurations.

I was using the Aux Send / Returns for busing verbs and found it was introducing latency, which is hard to notice at times due to verb's amorphous affect. I did have 3 aux sends on multiple tracks, which were busing post fader audio to separate verb buses. This sounds like I was breaking of the rule you seem to be implying, which is that only one instance of an aux send (or rack) per track will remain compensated.

Various T/W users have always recommended avoiding the Aux Send / Returns for this reason, recommending to use the compensated Stereo Pass Through rack. If what you infer regarding only one instance of an aux send or rack in a track is going to stay compensated is accurate, then I've been fooling myself using multiple rack pass throughs.

Are you saying that the Aux Send / Return plug latency compensation issue has been resolved over the many T/W versions, and that we're operating on old assumptions? It so, it seems there's contradictory evidence stating otherwise.

:help:
Trancit
KVRAF
 
1667 posts since 26 Jul, 2004
PierreG wrote:Dave, please further elaborate. Be great to have a map / flow chart of how to stay latency compensated throughout the various Waveform configurations.


+1

...Various T/W users have always recommended avoiding the Aux Send / Returns for this reason, recommending to use the compensated Stereo Pass Through rack...


Even again, for me it´s not compensated neither as soon as the "return" track got a latency plugin on...
PierreG
KVRist
 
163 posts since 23 Sep, 2005
dRowAudio wrote:
PierreG wrote:My understanding is that Aux Sends / Returns are NOT latency compensated in Waveform, thus I don't use them for busing.

This is incorrect. They are correctly compensated for as long as you are only using a single bus type element on a track (i.e. aux send/receive, Rack with multiple instances or track to track input device).

For all but the most complex cases latency should be correctly compensated for.


Just verified that Dave's clarification is indeed accurate. One instance of the mentioned bus elements is all you get per track if you want things to stay latency compensated. :?

As soon as you add a second bus to a track, it becomes delayed by the Audio Buffer Size setting in the Audio settings tab.

This is a deal breaker for what I'm trying to achieve, which is to have multiple reverb busses which I can send varying amounts of a tracks post fader output to each bus via separate aux sends, which in effect allows for making a custom blend of verbs per track while only using the one verb vst instance per return track for all tracks that are sending to them. This saves a LOT of verb VST instances on the tracks.

I used to use this technique for only one shared verb bus, which worked great, yet then I got greedy and wanted to use multiple verb buses, which led to discovering this limitation in Waveform (maybe other DAWs as well?).

I tried resolving this with racks, yet nothing I've tried can duplicate the same control I'm looking for while sharing verb plugs across tracks via these buses. The only latency compensated solution I can think of is to install the multiple verbs I want to blend onto each track that I want to use this technique on, which leads to LOT MORE instances of CPU sucking plugs on the tracks.

Anyone know of other ways to achieve what I'm after here? Sure seems like the aux buses should be latency compensated when using more than one.
HansP
KVRist
 
121 posts since 9 Sep, 2017
Did you try the "wire-rack" as a send (one per reverb candidate track), but then, use the same rack multiply on return tracks, that have different reverb plugins? at least you can mix the composite reverb amounts for all, though not individually.
(for starting, let us assume all reverbs have zero latency)

I am experimenting with a rack that has several inputs, and some EQ and compression in these paths.
for instrument tracks, I put this rack post-fade, and select one of these inputs.
this rack then feeds three reverb return tracks. still it is not exactly clear what the audio graph system is doing in this case.

Next attempt will be a rack with 2 inputs and 2 outputs (these can be stereo pairs, does not matter for the principle).
output A will have full input 1 (0dB) and input 2 at -6dB.
output B will have full input 2 (0dB) and input 1 at -6dB.
return bus for reverb A will use output A.
return bus for reverb B will use output B.

then, I have the choice to feed a track reverb send into input 1 or input 2 of that rack, and should yield me a different balance of the two reverb units.
PierreG
KVRist
 
163 posts since 23 Sep, 2005
Embarrassing Update:

These buses ARE NOT latency compensated.

I was lulled into thinking they were because I was using low to no latency plugs on the buses. My bad!

What I was able to achieve is a great mult-bus matrix, which does play in sync (unlike the many other experiments I tried that had huge latency issues), yet if you're wanting actual latency compensated shared buses, this is not going to work. If you use zero latency plugs on the buses, then this is still a useful method.

Conclusion for now = Tracktion devs need to put rack latency compensation at the top of the list for Waveform development!

Humbly Yours,
P

:help:


I've emerged from the lab with this gift to offer... :party:

Here's a working model of an 8 track x 8 shared parallel buses matrix, that is latency compensated.

It may well have been done by others in a much simpler form, yet my research has revealed that this is the only way to achieve this kind of thing in Waveform as it currently exists. Please experiment with this edit and let me know your thoughts.

Here's the text from the Text plugs in the edit:

Waveform Parallel Bus Construction-1 Edit Notes

Context:

My motivation to develop this solution was based in the amassed frustration of many years of not fully understanding Tracktion / Waveform racks (inc. Aux send / returns), and the inherent latency compensation issues they present. This offering is the product of a lot of experimentation and testing, which I'm very happy to report, works very well. This method requires MANY Routing / Relay Tracks to accomplish, yet there seems to be little to no CPU strain put on the edit with the addition of these relay tracks. I experimented with MANY different approaches, all of which failed to achieve the ultimate goal, which is to have multiple shared latency compensated parallel buses in Waveform.

What you get: This configuration provides 8 tracks that have independent control of 8 shared latency compensated parallel buses.

Some Unintended Benefits:

- The bus tracks have ZERO racks / aux return plugs in them to make them function, thus the buses have maximum plug instances available.

- The relay tracks can be loaded with plugs that will be in series with the parallel buses, allowing for each bus to be flavored differently by it's source track's independent routing.

- Having the stack faceplate control all buses from one GUI is a beautiful thing! I'm using this in a current project and just loving the ability to have all of these shared buses available in this simple / concise form.

Enjoy!
Philip Rampi (PierreG on KVR)

Readme:

* Use this edit as a template for building your new project, or turn it into a preset (see Preset Caveats below) and insert the preset into an existing edit. You can customize this foundation to expand to as many tracks / buses as you desire. The Track Insert tracks contain the unique racks that control the buses. Opening these racks and clicking on Faceplate in the stack view (it should automatically come up in this view) reveals the bus mixer control panel. Load your desired plugs into the bus tracks, then open each track's unique bus rack and independently mix to the shared buses.

If you're inserting this configuration into an existing edit, you can simply copy the unique Track Insert folder racks into your edit's existing tracks, which will automatically update the rack for use on those tracks.

Presets Caveats:

If you create a preset out of the 8 Buses x 8 Tracks folder track, be sure to insert the preset into your edit as the top most track, in that for some reason it can mess with track routing and screw things up if you insert it below the existing tracks.

* Note 1: There's a bug (as of W version 9.1.9) in which the inserted preset will not contain the faceplate's control assignments, thus they need to be reassigned. There's also a bug that prevents the all important Track Destination routing of this configuration from being assigned until you save the edit after the preset insertion, close it and reopen it. Sometimes it requires exiting Waveform and coming back into the edit to get these Track Destinations to kick in. Other times the Track Destination assignments show up as intended without all the fuss.

* Note 2: Another bug is present when copying this folder track to another edit, in that in the destination edit you will see the message Rack Type Missing in all of the rack instances. With this being the case, inserting a preset is the only viable option I know of for copying this configuration to other edits. Save As will work to clone it.

I've reported all of these bugs to Tracktion devs.
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