Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

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Mr D
KVRist
267 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.

Post Tue May 15, 2018 8:08 pm

@Mr Melda,

Thanks for all the amazing work with V12..........and the silence switch in DelayMB!

But i'm afraid we're not quite there yet!

In order for it to work like a true kill switch, we need it to instantaneously kill, then re-open the delay line when a midi note is received. As it is now, we can't get the desired behaviour. Because if the note that kills the delay happens at the same moment as the note the triggers the synth (so, the sound source that is actually being delayed), the delay line doesn't open again in time for a smooth delay sound. This is when the kill switch is being modulated with a midi mod "velocity note on/off".

I fear this is due to internal buffers or architecture or whatever. I suspect it needs to be custom implemented for this feature to work smoothly!

As i posted a while ago, you need to check out the kill switch in the delay plugin of VPS Avenger, as this works perfectly as a delay kill. So with Avenger you can have an insane amount of feed-backing delay, and when a new midi note is received, it will totally kill all delays, but will start the delay again instantaneously!

Sorry to be a pain in the ass about this, but with MTurboDelay in the works, i feel this feature is crucial to get right in order to allow some insane and really special delay effects where one uses extreme feedback and distortion, without the sound running away into audio mayhem!

It would also be great to have the silence switch triggerable by incoming audio, again i think this would need to be custom implemented to work correctly.

jmg8
KVRAF
1708 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Wed May 16, 2018 12:52 am

Mr D wrote: It would also be great to have the silence switch triggerable by incoming audio, again i think this would need to be custom implemented to work correctly.
You can already trigger it with any modulator. You can use envelope mod in audio mode, or folower, or something cool like a step sequencer.
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Mr D
KVRist
267 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Wed May 16, 2018 1:13 am

You're right, i wasn't clear enough, i meant it needs to be built in internally to the plugin (so, an audio trigger custom built in just for this feature), because if you do it via the normal modulation subsystem you're not going to get the instantaneous effect needed for it to sound smooth!

Mr D
KVRist
267 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Wed May 16, 2018 1:46 am

Just in case anyone is wondering what the hell i'm talking about, here below are the demo WAV files from the earlier thread, showing delay kill working smoothly in the Avenger delay effect.
It's not possible to achieve this smooth midi kill with Melda plugins at the moment, hence my request for some more tweaks!

download/file.php?id=14905

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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
10392 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 am

I'm lost I must say - why don't you simply send a very short on/off event then? Right before the new note starts?

From the beginning I'm confused by this request to be honest :D. So this doesn't help, please try hard to explain in 1-2 sentences what needs to be changed for this to work for you. Please make it as clear and simple as possible.
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
Image

jmg8
KVRAF
1708 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Wed May 16, 2018 9:05 am

Let's say we have 3 pluck chords of C, Dm and G. We like a nice high feedback for the sound of the delay.
However the notes in chords are making a horibble clashing sound when they are playing over the other chords. So in order to keep it clean, we would have the feedback stop when it recieves the next chord.
Sketch.png
So in the image above the delay is carrying over the top of the next chord.
Sketch 2.png
In the above image, the new chords stop the feedback and start a new clean delay line.

This is just 1 example there are more uses for the feature.
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Mr D
KVRist
267 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 6:30 am

Thanks jmg8, that sums it up.

The point is, it's not possible with a Melda delay to create the smooth ducking delay effect heard in my wav file from a couple of posts above.

And in fact you don't necessarily want a kill or silence switch that will totally kill the delay, maybe you want to set the level that the previous delay drops to.

So, for example, when a new midi note (or audio trigger is received if you're using audio triggering), you might want the delay to only drop down 20dB.

I know this probably sounds very esoteric, but it would be exceedingly useful when working with rhythmical delays and needs to be custom coded in, it won't work with the modulation subsystem i'm afraid!

Chandlerhimself
KVRian
819 posts since 19 Dec, 2013 from Japan

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 7:11 am

Can this really work with a delay plugin. It seems like this could only work in a synth. With a plugin the midi note would hit the synth before the delay, so the synth note would play before the delay could be turned off and on again. I think you could do it now with MDelayMB, but you'd need to duplicate the midi track and shift it forward a millisecond or 2 and then use that duplicated midi track as the midi input for MDelayMB. Otherwise I don't see how the delay could receive the midi before the synth does.

Mr D
KVRist
267 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 7:16 am

Receiving the midi note a couple of milliseconds later then the synth wouldn't matter, you could still get smooth action.

Having to shift ghost midi tracks around really isn't the kind of work-flow most people want to get involved with!

jmg8
KVRAF
1708 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 7:18 am

I understand what you are saying.
However, it is working here in this delay and it is not a synth.
Not sure how they do it, to be honest.
Are you absolutely sure that midi arrives in stages? Could it be that ALL synths and plugins receive the midi note at the exact same time?
The button on this GUI is "Kill FB"
Midi Kill.JPG
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Mr D
KVRist
267 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 8:49 am

Just to say, i haven't used it in this delay (posted above), only in the delay that's built into VPS Avenger Synth.

So Avenger has the advantage that it's already got the midi internally.

jmg8
KVRAF
1708 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 9:17 am

Mr D wrote:Just to say, i haven't used it in this delay (posted above), only in the delay that's built into VPS Avenger Synth.

So Avenger has the advantage that it's already got the midi internally.
OH, crap I have made a mistake!

The version inside the Avenger synth has 2 buttons "Midi Kill" and "Kill FB"
But the plugin version of the delay only has 1 button "Kill FB"

I'm guessing that Chandler is right then. The synth version is only able to do it as it has the midi first.
Probably not possible to do it with just a plugin then. Although duplicating and pre-shifting the midi does work although it is somewhat of a cumbersome workaround.
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Mr D
KVRist
267 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 9:20 am

But why do you think the delay between midi-to-synth and midi-to-plug would be any different?

They are both plugins, they're both receiving midi, why should the synth receive it before the delay plugin?

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VariKusBrainZ
KVRAF
8091 posts since 16 Dec, 2002

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 9:38 am

What about using an internal envelope if you need to delay the midi signal going to the trigger

jmg8
KVRAF
1708 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK

Re: Silence switch in DelayMB not working as well as Avenger delay kill yet!

Post Thu May 17, 2018 9:41 am

VariKusBrainZ wrote:What about using an internal envelope if you need to delay the midi signal going to the trigger
We don't want to delay the midi signal, it is the opposite that we want.

We would like the plugin to get the midi before or at the same time at the synth.
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