Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
10788 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:31 am

Dewdman42 wrote:At some point even an ssd drive has a max thruput, which May or may not exceed the max thruput of the buss its connected to and the motherboard, memory, controllers and cpu also have a max speed they can do, so if you’re already running into that bottleneck then it won’t matter if you have multiple ssd.

Spreading things around to different ssd drives could theoretically provide more max thruput but you’re probably splitting hairs at that point because ssd is very fast to begin with and ssd does not have the same problem as hdd for having to seek the head to a place on the platter. You will gain a lot of system performance by having the os on ssd. If you put samples on that same ssd drive it will be way way way faster then putting them on a separate hdd drive and even faster then an external hdd.

Will it be marginally faster to have two separate ssd drives? I personally don’t think you will notice any difference whatsoever compared to all in one ssd, but it’s possible you could get some slightly better benchmarks by having the load split to two ssd. Two ssd are going to be cheaper then one 4T ssd also, fwiw.

Anything you put external will probably be slower then internal unless you’re using esata or Thunderbolt.
Even with esata and TB there is more latency, no?

The OS issue is a non-issue. The OS does access the 'drive' at points, but these aren't huge, sustained processes. And once apps are launched into ram, they also aren't taking anything from storage. So, all that IOPS is reserved for audio tracks, and sample streaming, which are handled effortlessly.

I doubt anyone would notice any gain from having separate drives, apart from just the organisational bonus of keeping things separate.

I'd be very curious to hear Stefan's explanation :shrug:

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jancivil
KVRAF
16149 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:41 am

wagtunes wrote:I'm still confused on the OS, non OS issue.

Is it or isn't it okay to have the samples on the same drive as the OS when using an SSD drive? Stefan says it's not okay and somebody here (forget who) said it is okay.

I don't want to get a 4 TB drive and end up screwing up my load time because I got one SSD drive loading samples with an OS on the same drive. That's throwing $1,200 down the drain.
Again, the theory behind not doing samples streaming on the system drive is down to a reading head having too much to do; additionally the system drive is liable to do some stuff in the background making matters worse. Which doesn't matter with SSD and no reading head or spinning platter.

I have, for a solid year now, been doing intensive samples streaming and my experience was a USB SSD was slower than streaming off the systems drive, I have to suppose due to the speed of the connection. That's USB 2, mind.

Dewdman has it all sussed, btw. Also ghetto's link has the pertinent info.
SSD per se is much, much faster than you've experienced and the sys drive is no particular bottleneck thru itself.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14006 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:34 am

Thanks guys. I'm going to get back to Stefan and even point him to this thread if he wants to pop in. If it doesn't matter as long as I go total SSD, then the main issue for me will be price. If 2 2 TB SSD drives cost less than 1 4TB SSD drive then I'm going to go with the 2 drives just to save money.

But either way, going to SSD and ditching my current regular non SSD drive is going to make things much faster, correct?

Dewdman42
KVRAF
1504 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:47 am

Yes except if you use external SSD on USB, it will not be nearly as fast...because USB, especially USB2 is a speed bottleneck.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14006 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:50 am

Dewdman42 wrote:Yes except if you use external SSD on USB, it will not be nearly as fast...because USB, especially USB2 is a speed bottleneck.
Gotcha. Okay, so I'm going all internal. either 2 2s or 1 4.

As soon as the Euro makes its first tick back up, I'm purchasing. Right now it seems to be going down. So I'm just going to let it hit bottom and then on the first move up, we do this.

Curious as to how long this is going to take.

Dewdman42
KVRAF
1504 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:52 am

you really got me thinking about the euro thing and so I looked that the 5 year graph to see where its at. I guess maybe the lowest it got in the last 10 years was a couple years ago, 5% lower then now, give or take. Could go either way, but I suspect it will go down some more, but in the short term I don't expect radical difference.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14006 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:58 am

Dewdman42 wrote:you really got me thinking about the euro thing and so I looked that the 5 year graph to see where its at. I guess maybe the lowest it got in the last 10 years was a couple years ago, 5% lower then now, give or take. Could go either way, but I suspect it will go down some more, but in the short term I don't expect radical difference.
No, not radical, but you know what? And granted I'm talking about a $3,000 plus purchase. From when I first started tracking until now, the price of the whole package has gone down about $111. For me, that's significant.

Anyway, sold my licenses to Hive and Blue II and now I'm going to put my Discovery Pro license up for sale.

Every little bit helps.

Armagibbon
KVRian
695 posts since 20 Apr, 2017

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:00 pm

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Even with esata and TB there is more latency, no?

The OS issue is a non-issue. The OS does access the 'drive' at points, but these aren't huge, sustained processes. And once apps are launched into ram, they also aren't taking anything from storage. So, all that IOPS is reserved for audio tracks, and sample streaming, which are handled effortlessly.

I doubt anyone would notice any gain from having separate drives, apart from just the organisational bonus of keeping things separate.

I'd be very curious to hear Stefan's explanation :shrug:
Bottom line... you got no query delay probs if you set up diff drives for diff purposes and no bandwidth probs if you got em on diff controllers. It aint a big prob but its there if you gotta care. Save yourself a headache and put your os on m.2. New mobos got dedicated lanes for that shit.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14006 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:14 pm

Armagibbon wrote:
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Even with esata and TB there is more latency, no?

The OS issue is a non-issue. The OS does access the 'drive' at points, but these aren't huge, sustained processes. And once apps are launched into ram, they also aren't taking anything from storage. So, all that IOPS is reserved for audio tracks, and sample streaming, which are handled effortlessly.

I doubt anyone would notice any gain from having separate drives, apart from just the organisational bonus of keeping things separate.

I'd be very curious to hear Stefan's explanation :shrug:
Bottom line... you got no query delay probs if you set up diff drives for diff purposes and no bandwidth probs if you got em on diff controllers. It aint a big prob but its there if you gotta care. Save yourself a headache and put your os on m.2. New mobos got dedicated lanes for that shit.
Put my OS on m.2. I have no idea what that means.

I am not even close to being tech savvy.

Dewdman42
KVRAF
1504 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:15 pm

m2 is the next gen SSD, Don't worry about it right now.

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
10788 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:25 pm

Armagibbon wrote:
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Even with esata and TB there is more latency, no?

The OS issue is a non-issue. The OS does access the 'drive' at points, but these aren't huge, sustained processes. And once apps are launched into ram, they also aren't taking anything from storage. So, all that IOPS is reserved for audio tracks, and sample streaming, which are handled effortlessly.

I doubt anyone would notice any gain from having separate drives, apart from just the organisational bonus of keeping things separate.

I'd be very curious to hear Stefan's explanation :shrug:
Bottom line... you got no query delay probs if you set up diff drives for diff purposes and no bandwidth probs if you got em on diff controllers. It aint a big prob but its there if you gotta care. Save yourself a headache and put your os on m.2. New mobos got dedicated lanes for that shit.
I don't think the need is here, in this case. Maybe you've broken through that ceiling, though :shrug:

Armagibbon
KVRian
695 posts since 20 Apr, 2017

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:37 pm

Def gonna see a diff on small buffers w/ big sample projects. Havin your os on a independent bus means you aint gotta share bandwidth w/ the sata controllers so you get a lil better dpc. Like I was sayin it aint a big prob for most but it is if you gotta care. Dunno how important low latency is to yall but its a big deal for me. Low latency is like 1 or 2ms imo. Cant even go w/ sata pci-e cards to isolate cus the drivers f*ck it all up... os on native m.2s the only way it works if you got enough samples to fill all your sata w/ ssds ahahahaha

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14006 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:49 am

Well, it's done. I made my purchases after seeing the Euro went back up a bit.

VIENNA INSTRUMENTS PRO 2
VIENNA MIR PRO 24
ROOMPACK 1 Vienna Konzerthaus
VIENNA DIMENSION STRINGS I (X)
ORCHESTRAL STRINGS BUNDLE
APPASSIONATA STRINGS BUNDLE

I have $36 left in my PayPal account. Didn't have to go into my savings for this.

Downloading and installing since about 5:30 this morning. It's been a little over 3 hours. I'd say I have another hour, hour and a half to go. These libraries are HUGE.

menthol
KVRist
46 posts since 1 Jul, 2009 from New York

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:03 pm

Good luck, Wags. You certainly paid in blood and sweat, in addition to dollars. Hope all the agonizing was for a good cause.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
14006 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:15 pm

menthol wrote:Good luck, Wags. You certainly paid in blood and sweat, in addition to dollars. Hope all the agonizing was for a good cause.
Well, I'm sitting here with a massive learning curve in front of me. I'm setting up a tutorial project and I'm going to do a mock piece for full orchestra after I get at least a basic understanding of how all the keyswitching and crossfading works. On the plus side, in the manual they have a typical orchestral setup as far as where all the "players" go for a "traditional" piece. I'm going to start with that and work my way from there.

40 years of making music and I feel like a newbie again.

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